University North Park

[Patrick]

Patrick

Reading your posts over the last several months I have developed the impression that you are the most negative poster here. Is that required in the job description of moderator or is there just very little that pleases you?

I know the facts from the city of Norman, and they're nothing like the pompus reports presented here.

Remember, I was also called a negative poster when I cried foul on upscale stores like Saks, Williams Sonoma, etc. coming to Spring Creek Village. Ends up I was 100% correct.

I'm positive about real events, but I just get tired of people making false promises.

[Midtowner]

Developers will often make pie-in-the-sky promises in order to secure public funds or public support. That is not at all unlike what is happening with this development.

The TIF financing received here will really hurt Norman schools. TIF financing, if you recall locks the property tax rate of the subject property at its pre-development price. The owners continue to pay the full assessed proprety tax, however, any money above the earlier locked-in value goes to pay off the TIF bond instead of to the schools.

Add to that the fact that so many other commercial centers in Norman will suffer because of this development, and you have problems. This may be slightly offset by the fact that there will be subsequent development in the immediate area trying to piggyback on University Park's success; however, all of such development will also be counterbalanced by its own effect on older developments.

In the end, the schools will miss out on a lot of revenue that they otherwise would have had. A big part of these developments will be paid out of the pocket books of local schools. Not healthy in the least in my opinion. It certainly isn't what the public was sold when TIF went to a vote of the people.

[ETL]

Am I mistaken or is the fact if the UNP is not built the schools will be just as well off if the UNP is built. What I mean is that the UNP will have no effect on the schools. Am I wrong? Also, what was the affect of the MOA in Minnesota on the surrounding local business?

[Midtowner]

ETL: The land is in a prime spot for development. Your argument assumes that if UNP is not built with TIF money, that nothing at all will be built, and the property values will not increase.

If the land sits there vacant, the property value will increase, so I don't think your argument works.

Also, while there might be an appreciation in land immediately surrounding the area, it can also be said that competition in the UNP area will have an impact in property values throughout the Norman metro area (namely, it will drive customers away, and subsequently harm those property values).

So yes, in my most humble opinion, you are wrong

[ETL]

You are right, I mad an ignorant argument. =) But, do you think Norman would be better off without the UNP?

[Midtowner]

Norman would be best served having a top-notch development which did not steal money from the schools in order to be built.

I do think that public services in Norman will be made to suffer because of this unless there is a significant bump in sales tax revenue.

Even then, the sales tax revenue does not go to school, property taxes do. In any event, Norman public schools will be paying from their budget (in the form of money not received) to enhance a private development.

[ETL]

Why is it not PRIVATELY funded. Why is this being allowed?

[Midtowner]

Because the voters in their wisdom on Nov. 2nd, 2004 voted for an amendment of Oklahoma Constitution Article X 6-c in 2004 allowing it.

A case that discusses it at length is Harvey vs. OCURA discusses the constitutionality of a similar project (although, I will say that the Skirvin which is discussed therein is a much more meritorious project, but that's my subjective analysis):
http://www.oscn.net/applications/osc...?CiteID=441791

[Popsy]

Midtowner

It was my understanding that since the property was owned by the University Foundation there were no property taxes currently being paid, thus the school district loses nothing in that respect. Additionally, if nothing happens with the property for the next twenty five years and no taxes are being paid even though the land appreciates, did the school district lose anything? It was also my understanding that the property tax monies would somehow be shared with the school district during the life of the TIF. It was my further understanding that the TIF would not kick into effect until the Norman tax base increased by four percent. Also, if monies from the project go to the benefit of the University Foundation, which eventually flows to OU, then is Oklahoma education somehow benefiting from that? Now, did I misunderstand or are you the one that needs to get the facts straight?

[Midtowner]

Midtowner

It was my understanding that since the property was owned by the University Foundation there were no property taxes currently being paid, thus the school district loses nothing in that respect. Additionally, if nothing happens with the property for the next twenty five years and no taxes are being paid even though the land appreciates, did the school district lose anything?

Interesting argument -- in this case, how does TIF even work?? If the University doesn't pay taxes on the land that it owns (and the Foundation, a distinct entity from Oklahoma University very well may unless it enjoys some sort of property tax exemption which I'm not familiar with).

A TIF bond is paid by the property tax in excess of the original value which would normally go to the school district. If you're talking about the entity not even having to pay taxes, or something to that effect, then where does the TIF payback money come from at all?

Who is going to underwrite a bond like that?

It was also my understanding that the property tax monies would somehow be shared with the school district during the life of the TIF.

Correct. With TIF, the pre-project property value is locked in, and the district continues to receive that money. Thus, if a $10,000/acre property appreciates to a $250,000/acre property, the school district only receives the property tax which would have been due on the former value.

It was my further understanding that the TIF would not kick into effect until the Norman tax base increased by four percent.

That may very well be true, however, that doesn't account for the fact that 1) this is a desirable location; 2) someone eventually would have built a substantial project there, almost definitely within the next quarter-century; and 3) the school district is now losing 100% of the prospective revenue from such a project.

Also, if monies from the project go to the benefit of the University Foundation, which eventually flows to OU, then is Oklahoma education somehow benefiting from that?

Sure, but I'm not talking about the Oklahoma Higher Ed system losing money. Clearly, they win here. The Norman Public School system, however, loses. You are essentially arguing that this is okay because we're robbing Peter to pay Paul. Seldom is this the case with TIF though. Typically, the money goes out of the school district's pocket and into that of a private developer. This may be slightly more palatable because the money is shifting from one public education entity to another, but your apparent argument that it's a 'wash' or something to that effect isn't very convincing.

Now, did I misunderstand or are you the one that needs to get the facts straight?

I think I'm fairly well-informed. Perhaps you could educate us as to the tax liability that the Foundation previously had regarding the property, and how a TIF bond can be paid when there are no property taxes to support the payback in the first place. I may be completely missing the point and/or misunderstanding the tax liability of the Foundation, but I seem to read that it has none in the current arrangement.

[Patrick]

I really hope the developers of this property prove me wrong and make something classy out of this development. Don't get me wrong, I want to see a first class project here. It's just from what I've seen, I think comparing this project to Utica Square is going way overboard.

[BFizzy]

This project plan seems to include a real "lifestyle center":

http://www.okctalk.com/gallery/showg...00/ppuser/1789

[BricktownGuy]

the previous posts' link points to a page that states:

"This category does not contain any images."

[BFizzy]

It was the plans for the southern half of the University Town Center, but I guess I can't post pictures.

I'll try to find another site to host the picture and then send the link.

[BFizzy]

Okay, let's try again...

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...foster/UTC.jpg

[traxx]

I hope it ends up cool and a lifestyle center would be great, but already I see too much frickin' parking. It just looks like a sea of parking spaces and I had such high hopes for this place.

Developers in Oklahoma gotta get out of this mind set that we need tons of surface parking. Enought with the Wal-Mart site design mentality of setting your store way back from the street with an ocean of parking and selling of the that space to strip malls that house tanning and nail places.

We need smart design not status quo. Anyway, I hope they prove me wrong.

[venture]

I think people need to realize, just like the map shows, the actual Lifestyle Center portion hasn't even been touched yet. So yes...there will be a lot of parking visible right now, but this is a massive project.

Also looks like 5 hotel-like options in the project. I am guessing some of these will be much small B&B type operations, versus the full scale hotel.

The layout of the lifestyle center is very much like Levis Commons that I linked too before...just a bit smaller.

[ETL]

Is this plan final?

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...foster/UTC.jpg

This plan would be the death to the classy shopping I had hoped for. This plan needs some serious work!

[Luke]

PIc didn't work for me.

[BricktownGuy]

does not work for me either.

[ETL]

Try this... http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...foster/UTC.jpg

[Nuclear_2525]

hmmm...i hope thats not really the plan. It doesn't seem lik that could be 1.4 million sq ft of retail unless those buildings are multi-story.

The plan just looks like another typical strip-type development with seas of parking, but maybe a little nicer.

[soonerliberal]

The problem I see with that proposal is the lack of pedestrian walkways apparent from the picture. It appears as if you would be required to walk through a sea of parking to get from the Embassy Suites to the "Lifestyle center" and then another sea to the restaurant triangle, or that is what I assume it would be.

The design looks okay, but not really what they have made it seem like. Does anybody know if this is an official proposal?

[BricktownGuy]

I do not believe anything officially has been released to the public.

[ETL]

I was told by someone high up in this project that Sooner Mall was going to close after this completion. I did not get to talk to him much, but I will ask him some questions when I get a chance. I need to ask him why it looks like an ordinary strip mall. Also, he told me that the Warren Theater was moving to another location in Moore. He said across the street, but I can’t picture where. In its place, there may be store like Bass Pro. I think it started with a c or a t. I can’t remember.