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Thread: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

  1. #1

    Default Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    Great article! Here's some highlights:

    The reality is that most urban growth in our most dynamic, fastest-growing regions has included strong expansion of the suburban and even exurban fringe, along with a limited resurgence in their historically small inner cores. Economic growth, it turns out, allows for young hipsters to find amenable places before they enter their 30s, and affordable, more suburban environments nearby to start families.

    This urbanizing process is shaped, in many ways, by the late development of these regions. In most aspirational cities, close-in neighborhoods often are dominated by single-family houses; it’s a mere 10 or 15 minute drive from nice, leafy streets in Ft. Worth, Charlotte, or Austin to the urban core. In these cities, families or individuals who want to live near the center can do without being forced to live in a tiny apartment.

    And in many of these places, the historic underdevelopment in the central district, coupled with job growth, presents developers with economically viable options for higher-density housing as well. Houston presents the strongest example of this trend. Although nearly 60 percent of Houston’s growth over the decade has been more than 20 miles outside the core, the inner ring area encompassed within the loop around Interstate 610 has also been growing steadily, albeit at a markedly slower rate. This contrasts with many urban regions, where close-in areas just beyond downtowns have been actually losing population.

    <snip>

    Finally, they will not become highly dense, apartment cities — as developers and planners insist they “should.” Instead the aspirational regions are likely to remain dominated by a suburbanized form characterized by car dependency, dispersion of job centers, and single-family homes. In 2011, for example, twice as many single-family homes sold in Raleigh as condos and townhouses combined. The ratio of new suburban to new urban housing, according to the American Community Survey, is 10 to 1 in Las Vegas and Orlando, 5 to 1 in Dallas, 4 to 1 in Houston and 3 to 1 in Phoenix.

    Pressed by local developers and planners, some aspirational cities spend heavily on urban transit, including light rail. To my mind, these efforts are largely quixotic, with transit accounting for five percent or less of all commuters in most systems. The Charlotte Area Transit System represents less a viable means of commuting for most residents than what could be called Manhattan infrastructure envy. Even urban-planning model Portland, now with five radial light rail lines and a population now growing largely at its fringes, carries a smaller portion of commuters on transit than before opening its first line in 1986.

    But such pretentions, however ill-suited, have always been commonplace for ambitious and ascending cities, and are hardly a reason to discount their prospects. Urbanistas need to wake up, start recognizing what the future is really looking like and search for ways to make it work better. Under almost any imaginable scenario, we are unlikely to see the creation of regions with anything like the dynamic inner cores of successful legacy cities such as New York, Boston, Chicago or San Francisco. For better or worse, demographic and economic trends suggest our urban destiny lies increasingly with the likes of Houston, Charlotte, Dallas-Ft. Worth, Raleigh and even Phoenix.

    The critical reason for this is likely to be missed by those who worship at the altar of density and contemporary planning dogma. These cities grow primarily because they do what cities were designed to do in the first place: help their residents achieve their aspirations—and that’s why they keep getting bigger and more consequential, in spite of the planners who keep ignoring or deploring their ascendance.

    Houston Rising?Why the Next Great American Cities Aren?t What You Think | Newgeography.com

  2. #2

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    We'll see but basing growth trends on what home builders do has proven to be a disaster. Population statistics say that current suburbia will be a ghost town in 30 years. My money is on the data and not the home builders.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    We aren't going to stop sprawl in OKC. But by adding better transit and more density in the urban core, we will offer an alternative. This guy seems to have an axe to grind against urban thinking. History proves him wrong.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just the facts View Post
    We'll see but basing growth trends on what home builders do has proven to be a disaster. Population statistics say that current suburbia will be a ghost town in 30 years. My money is on the data and not the home builders.
    You didn't read the article did you?

  5. #5

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    Quote Originally Posted by soonerguru View Post
    This guy seems to have an axe to grind against urban thinking.
    This. If you want to be taken seriously, don't call your opponents "something-istas".

    All the guy has shown in this article, assuming we take all of his facts as true, is that cities that have historically had underdeveloped urban centers are now starting to develop them. As a result, they are experiencing high levels of growth. But it doesn't show what he thinks it shows.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    Quote Originally Posted by mkjeeves View Post
    You didn't read the article did you?
    Yes I did. He is using current/historic housing data to determine our future state. I am using what the data shows our populations will look like in 30 years to determine what kind of housing we will need then. I'll see if I can find it as I have posted it before, but we are going for a society with 50% of the housholds having children to a society where only 20% have children. That leaves 80% of population who don't need 4 bedroom houses on cul-de-sacs - which is what we have the most of today in the housing stock and is about 95% of what home builders are building currently.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoyasooner View Post
    All the guy has shown in this article, assuming we take all of his facts as true, is that cities that have historically had underdeveloped urban centers are now starting to develop them. As a result, they are experiencing high levels of growth. But it doesn't show what he thinks it shows.
    That's not what was shown at all. He showed cities have grown by their ability to have jobs, particularly not tech jobs but jobs like energy; to have decentralized jobs; to have cheap housing, mostly still in the burbs; AND to have gained a more rounded approach at attracting the brains by having redeveloped downtowns. That's not at all the same thing as building downtown will result in high growth.

    Most notable is that the inner cores will not replicate the legacy cities in density by replacing the close-in burbs with higher density apartments and ending suburban development. It's not going to happen.

    The good news is OKC has all of the above, or is getting there.

    This. If you want to be taken seriously, don't call your opponents "something-istas".
    As if his side were the first to call names and thrown stones.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just the facts View Post
    Yes I did. He is using current/historic housing data to determine our future state. I am using what the data shows our populations will look like in 30 years to determine what kind of housing we will need then. I'll see if I can find it as I have posted it before, but we are going for a society with 50% of the housholds having children to a society where only 20% have children. That leaves 80% of population who don't need 4 bedroom houses on cul-de-sacs - which is what we have the most of today in the housing stock and is about 95% of what home builders are building currently.
    ...current data. Unless you have a crystal ball.

    He spoke to population, family size increase and decrease in the burbs and in the core and linked to another article that did more of the same, all in contrast to your idea there will not be people who have families and only people who want to live in apartments.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    Quote Originally Posted by mkjeeves View Post
    Great article! Here's some highlights:

    Finally, they will not become highly dense, apartment cities — as developers and planners insist they “should.”
    Kotkin frustrates me. I don't know a single planner that advocates for this. He loves to misquote or re-interpret what leading planners and urban thinkers have to say.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    Well, like I said, we will know for sure in 30 years. I have time.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    It is interesting, mkjeeves, thanks. I have a couple of comments, though. Maybe I'm just starting to drink JTF's Kool-Aid, but we need very desperately to get away from thinking that we need cars, or at the very least for cars to be the focus. mkjeeves: in your article highlights (which I've abbreviated even more and bolded a couple of things):
    Quote Originally Posted by mkjeeves View Post
    This urbanizing process is shaped, in many ways, by the late development of these regions. In most aspirational cities, close-in neighborhoods often are dominated by single-family houses; it’s a mere 10 or 15 minute drive from nice, leafy streets in Ft. Worth, Charlotte, or Austin to the urban core. In these cities, families or individuals who want to live near the center can do without being forced to live in a tiny apartment.
    <snip>
    Instead the aspirational regions are likely to remain dominated by a suburbanized form characterized by car dependency, dispersion of job centers, and single-family homes.
    you can't help but see that we can't seem to imagine cities without cars. I wonder if there were to be a civilization that came back to look at earth after the 2012 doomsday and saw all the surface parking lots, driveways, streets, parking garages, car dealers (odd, isn't it? that the purveyors of automobiles are given the same appellation as the purveyors of illicit drugs?), and even preferential parking spaces, what would they conclude to be the dominant species on earth? The internal combustion robots? or the carbon-based parasites that infested them? Who's that guy JTF likes that used to be mayor of a major city in ... what? Venezuela? who more or less outlawed cars in downtown? No knee-jerk reactionary response, PluPan: No one wants to do that, but, maybe he had it right. Maybe we should have an intervention and ditch the car. With the way that our building codes exist, we virtually mandate cars, based on mandated free parking, but take away the focus on the cars and instead focus on making every square foot of city land taxable at the highest possible rate and suddenly, a city can afford to do lots of great things for its occupants. Donald Shoup, a UCLA professor who is described by Stephen J. Dubner (Freakonomics co-creator and host) as "a transportation scholar who is one of the worlds leading authorities on parking," says
    I did use data to estimate that parking subsidies in the United States are somewhere between 1 and 4 percent of the total GNP, which is about in the range of what we spend for Medicare or national defense. So that’s the cost of parking not paid for by drivers.
    Look, it takes all kinds to make the world go around and not everybody's gonna be happy in a high-rise apartment downtown, but (if JTF's right), the federal government is basically long-term bankrupting the cities by the mortgage deduction and other seemingly heinous acts. I'm not making fun of JTF -- I happen to think he's right, but look at the old post card photos of OKC posted on another thread, and then take a look at OKC now. There's a big difference in what we want to call a normal (suburban) lifestyle and what I think a majority of any city's occupants would have called normal before WWII. Even in Shoup's Freakonomics interview, the host says, "how much of [urban and suburban sprawl] do you think of as caused by the ancient practice of offering free parking everywhere you go?"
    Shoup: "Well it isn't ancient."
    Dubner: "Ancient I mean 1950s or 1960s. You know ..."
    I can't imagine living without my car, but when did I learn that? and how can I get back to not needing it?
    No. I'm not JTF's foil for him to come in and finish out the info-mercial and set us all straight. I just think that the author's premise (and he even almost says it himself) is based on a blind acceptance of car dependency.
    Maybe the next great cities aren't JTF McWorld, but maybe they really should be -- if only we could give up the car cold turkey.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    Pretty good Dubya61, but let me add this. Urbansim does not mean just highrise apartments all stacked next to each other in their own little pocket of open space. That is what Le Corbusier and IM Pei proposed. The New Urbanist want the complete rural to urban transect built. However, the driving force behind all of it is cost. We simply cannot afford to keep building all the infrastructure needed to support low density sprawl. If people hate taxes now why do they support a development style that is going to require even a higher level of taxation to keep it going? It boggles the mind.

    Also, the former mayor is Enrique Peñalosa from Bogota, CO.


  13. #13

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just the facts View Post
    Yes I did. He is using current/historic housing data to determine our future state. I am using what the data shows our populations will look like in 30 years to determine what kind of housing we will need then. I'll see if I can find it as I have posted it before, but we are going for a society with 50% of the housholds having children to a society where only 20% have children. That leaves 80% of population who don't need 4 bedroom houses on cul-de-sacs - which is what we have the most of today in the housing stock and is about 95% of what home builders are building currently.
    need as very little to do with it ...

    lots of couples with no children WANT a 4 bedroom home on a cul-de-sac

  14. #14

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderSooner View Post
    need as very little to do with it ...

    lots of couples with no children WANT a 4 bedroom home on a cul-de-sac
    and that brings us right back to the final conclusion of why these cities are growing in spite of the should have could have mights:

    The critical reason for this is likely to be missed by those who worship at the altar of density and contemporary planning dogma. These cities grow primarily because they do what cities were designed to do in the first place: help their residents achieve their aspirations—and that’s why they keep getting bigger and more consequential, in spite of the planners who keep ignoring or deploring their ascendance.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    yep

  16. #16

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderSooner View Post
    need as very little to do with it ...

    lots of couples with no children WANT a 4 bedroom home on a cul-de-sac
    Wrong - studies show that 50% want to live within walking distance of daily needs but many builders are still only building subdivisions because that is all banks will finance. Watch the videos I posted on the New Urbanism Library thread - the data, studies, and stats are all there.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just the facts View Post
    Wrong - studies show that 50% want to live within walking distance of daily needs but many builders are still only building subdivisions because that is all banks will finance. Watch the videos I posted on the New Urbanism Library thread - the data, studies, and stats are all there.
    but wait you said 80% don't need 4 bed houses and cul-de-sacs so which is it??

  18. #18

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderSooner View Post
    but wait you said 80% don't need 4 bed houses and cul-de-sacs so which is it??
    50% today - right now - of all people want to live within 5 minutes of daily needs. 30 years from now 80% of all households will not have children.

    You know, I post all the videos because they contain the data you are trying to dispute or pretend doesn't exist. I can lead a horse to water but I can't make him drink. Watch the videos. Get a VGA monitor cable and hook it up to to your TV and pop some popcorn (that's how I do it).

  19. #19

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just the facts View Post
    50% today - right now - of all people want to live within 5 minutes of daily needs. 30 years from now 80% of all households will not have children.
    Sorry I was off on my numbers. In 20 years 88% of US hosehold won't have children.

    Feel free to skip forward to the 34 minute mark


  20. #20

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    Hipsterism is a fad. Suburbia won't die as long as energy is cheap enough to support it. Those who think the preferences of today's early-twenties hipster will define urban development for the next several decades are mistaking. However we are probably moving into an era where urbanism isn't completely ignored in favor of suburbia and maybe eventually we'll reach a good balance in terms of urban and suburban development. One thing that isn't talked about that needs to be if we want today's twentysomethings to stay in the urban core long term is address issues with inner city public schools. This isn't just an OKC problem, just about every city has poor public schools in the inner city.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    Unfortunately, at the present, this is another left versus right issue, at least economically. Enrique Peñalosa is a great man and has a great story as Mayor of Bogata and after. He was elected as a centrist candidate and what he saw during his term moved him to the left economically. The bottom line for him was that the big banks, the wealthy elite who pay for elections, have too much power. They effectively destroyed any political career that Peñalosa had after his term as mayor. He was considered center-right and he didn't play along as mayor and became a center-left mayor and now believes that big money in so few hands control too much and decide too much. Decisions which should be made by communities as a whole are made in back rooms by the wealthy elites, or development is done strictly for personal financial gain rather than what is correct planning, sustainable and ethical. The right has an agenda that goes against that of New Urbanist thinking. As a power bloc, the right wants to do what's best for them, not what's best for the community. Peñalosa's time as mayor saw that up close. He's actually quite conservative on some social issues, but he's adamantly opposed to too much wealth in too few hands, and supports government investment in infrastructure, taking a more democratic approach to planning as opposed to private development, though he's opposed to welfare programs. Welcome to the idea of the "new economy" as preached in this country by Gar Alperovitz and others. Even a huge conservative star like Bruce Bartlett is now a confirmed "new economist" and has rejected the kind of conservatism he once believed in with all he had. You can read him here Revenge of the Reality-Based Community | The American Conservative

    This all fits together. One has to take the time to really think about priorities and throw off old political labels to truly "get" it. Too many quickly shout it's Socialism!!

  22. #22
    HangryHippo Guest

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    Quote Originally Posted by mkjeeves View Post
    That's not what was shown at all. He showed cities have grown by their ability to have jobs, particularly not tech jobs but jobs like energy; to have decentralized jobs; to have cheap housing, mostly still in the burbs; AND to have gained a more rounded approach at attracting the brains by having redeveloped downtowns. That's not at all the same thing as building downtown will result in high growth.

    Most notable is that the inner cores will not replicate the legacy cities in density by replacing the close-in burbs with higher density apartments and ending suburban development. It's not going to happen.

    The good news is OKC has all of the above, or is getting there.



    As if his side were the first to call names and thrown stones.
    While the article was interesting, you seem to have an axe to grind against urbanism as well.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    Quote Originally Posted by OnlyOne View Post
    While the article was interesting, you seem to have an axe to grind against urbanism as well.
    Yep.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    Quote Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
    Hipsterism is a fad. Suburbia won't die as long as energy is cheap enough to support it. Those who think the preferences of today's early-twenties hipster will define urban development for the next several decades are mistaking. However we are probably moving into an era where urbanism isn't completely ignored in favor of suburbia and maybe eventually we'll reach a good balance in terms of urban and suburban development. One thing that isn't talked about that needs to be if we want today's twentysomethings to stay in the urban core long term is address issues with inner city public schools. This isn't just an OKC problem, just about every city has poor public schools in the inner city.
    This is the post of the day for this thread & is probably the most relevant, meaningful post that will come of this thread. JTF will post his facts, mkjeeves will argue with anything & everything -- but mainly JTF -- that disagrees with the article, BoulderSooner will come in & make his comments just to be argumentative, & someone (usually zookeeper or metro) will start posting about political stances & how one side is better than the other, then this thread goes BOOM! Just like every other thread that has anything posted that is a passionate subject to someone on here.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Why The Next Great Cities Aren't What You Think.

    Quote Originally Posted by sidburgess View Post
    Feeling a little left out of your OKCTalk Circle of Life post.... ;-)
    Is it that easy to tell?

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