Maps IV

[warreng88]

What about 300 million for a new Jail and relocating it out of downtown. It would be nice to remove the anchor of bad characters away from downtown and the newly renovated film row.

I think that is a county bond issue, not a sales tax issue. Correct me if I am wrong.

[jedicurt]

I think something that has to be on MAPS IV is to make a better arena at the Fair Grounds... OKC needs at least two arenas... one top tier facility and one right below it in quality and size. If we are going to tear down the Cox Center and take it back to grid, then i think an arena the size of what is in the Cox Center should be build at the fairgrounds. This would allow for the events (such as the Barons) to take place at a cheaper facility, and allow for the multitude of events that can all happen at once to continue to do so... After having been at the arena at the fairgrounds this weekend, I realized how much work it really needs, and think that a MAPS IV should involve it's destruction and rebuilding... either exactly where it is, or elsewhere on the fairgrounds lot.

[warreng88]

I think something that has to be on MAPS IV is to make a better arena at the Fair Grounds... OKC needs at least two arenas... one top tier facility and one right below it in quality and size. If we are going to tear down the Cox Center and take it back to grid, then i think an arena the size of what is in the Cox Center should be build at the fairgrounds. This would allow for the events (such as the Barons) to take place at a cheaper facility, and allow for the multitude of events that can all happen at once to continue to do so... After having been at the arena at the fairgrounds this weekend, I realized how much work it really needs, and think that a MAPS IV should involve it's destruction and rebuilding... either exactly where it is, or elsewhere on the fairgrounds lot.

I have not been in the fairgrounds arena for many years, so pardon my ignorance, but could an upgrade be done to it to make it nicer or would it be like lipstick on a pig?

[ou48A]

There is no doubt that “Maps for Kids” has helped… But any new MAP’s package should finish the job because there are still huge and serious needs that are going to be left undone.
Commuter rail should be voted on in a MAP’s project

[BoulderSooner]

i don't see the cox going away anytime soon .. and when it does i would bet that it is the future home of a new arena

[jedicurt]

I have not been in the fairgrounds arena for many years, so pardon my ignorance, but could an upgrade be done to it to make it nicer or would it be like lipstick on a pig?

it looks nice on the outside.. but boy, what i saw inside, i kind of think it might lean towards the later

[ljbab728]

What about 300 million for a new Jail and relocating it out of downtown. It would be nice to remove the anchor of bad characters away from downtown and the newly renovated film row.

Really? I've never noticed a multitude of bad characters anxious to hang around the county jail.

[MustangGT]

There is no doubt that “Maps for Kids” has helped… But any new MAP’s package should finish the job because there are still huge and serious needs that are going to be left undone.
Commuter rail should be voted on in a MAP’s project

Agreed. All MAPS project have fallen short of the promise. Finish what has been started to 100% completion then move on.

[betts]

Agreed. All MAPS project have fallen short of the promise. Finish what has been started to 100% completion then move on.

You're not happy with ANY of the MAPS projects? The river, the ballpark, the arena, the school improvements? I think a lot of people are quite happy with what's been done so far.

[hoya]

Agreed. All MAPS project have fallen short of the promise. Finish what has been started to 100% completion then move on.

If you are waiting on perfection, you will always be disappointed.

The fact is, before MAPS, OKC was decades behind other cities our size in investment, amenities, civic pride, just about any quality of life factor you could choose to consider. Housing was cheap, but that's because no one wanted to move here, and wages were low. Since MAPS, we have made great progress in catching up. But compared to other cities our size, we still have quite a ways to go. Not every project has been a tremendous success, but OKC wouldn't be anything like it is today without the investment made by that one cent sales tax.

I mean, seriously, we have a successful NBA team. Think about that.

[Bellaboo]

Agreed. All MAPS project have fallen short of the promise. Finish what has been started to 100% completion then move on.

The above statement is kind of a stretch isn't it ?

The Arena. Was a steal at the cost paid for what we got. The Hornets gave us the exposure to the NBA. Sure we have voted on upgrades to bring it up to par for NBA standards, but it has paid for itself many times over with the positive vibes received by the Thunder. OKC is mentioned daily on ESPN, whether it's live TV or online, the positive national exposure exceeds any cost we've put into it. Enough said.

[warreng88]

I would love to see once the streetcar stretches from DT/BT/Midtown stretch up Lincoln to the Capital (2 miles from BT through OUHSC) and I am not sure how to connect them, but Plaza District, OCU/Uptown 23rd Street and Paseo. I guess you could keep going through midtown to Classen then split off down 16th street and continue up Classen to 23rd Street going east back to Broadway/Robinson then back south to Santa Fe. Not sure the amount of miles (maybe 5-6?) but it would be a good phase II.

[warreng88]

There is no doubt that “Maps for Kids” has helped… But any new MAP’s package should finish the job because there are still huge and serious needs that are going to be left undone.
Commuter rail should be voted on in a MAP’s project

What needs are you referring to? Nothing is done right now so we can't measure what was promised and what actually happened. Again, this whole conversation about MAPS IV is speculation at the time. It's like saying, "If I won the lottery, I would..."

[Larry OKC]

Perfection? No, but I concur with the sentiments expressed. The standard I hold them to is the same standard they set for themselves (calling it a disaster if it failed to meet)

Complete projects:

1) On time
2) On budget
3) As promised

Few if any of the various incarnations of MAPS have met the criteria in whole or in part.

As long as voters keep passing it and don't hold the powers-that-be responsible, what incentive do they have to change the way they over-promise and under-deliver (to put it kindly)?

[OKCisOK4me]

I'll tell ya what... I love what MAPS has done for the city but the way Shadid is trying to pull a loopty loop with the streetcar. (the main reason I voted for 3) and transition those funds to just improving the bus system then I will never vote for another MAPS again.

[warreng88]

I'll tell ya what... I love what MAPS has done for the city but the way Shadid is trying to pull a loopty loop with the streetcar. (the main reason I voted for 3) and transition those funds to just improving the bus system then I will never vote for another MAPS again.

And there are a lot of people who think that same way. He needs to focus on working with the existing buses and raising money for that than taking money alotted specifically for a project, unless that project is the convention center, then I say take all you want...

[BigD Misey]

Between Change Orders and adendums i dont think i've seen but a handfull of projects done at budgeted cost.
RFP's are an inaccurate science, and costs 90 percent of the time are absorbed by the owners- in this case the City for Maps.

[GaryOKC6]

OKC seems to be doing quite well with sales tax collections. Maps should be well funded. I was at the boathouse today and I looked at the downtown sykline as was amazed at how much it has changed over the past few years. And now there are crains every where you look. I am proud of our city and all the wonderful changes that MAPS has brought. I am all for the next MAPs project.

[kevinpate]

The projects to date have been good for the city, though not without some difficulties.

Not sure how well funded the current ones are. After all, the miles of trails were curtailed. Number of senior centers sounds trimmed and it seems just as doubtful all the remaining ones will be aquatics inclusive. Cost containment on the biggie box property seems somewhat impossible given where the playas want to park it.

While I am no opponent of streetcar in any fashion, to treat it as though it's a form of sacred cow instead of potential ground chuck may be a tad overstated. There's the fluff and there's the binding language. And the actual binding language has more stretch and give than a chubby man's yoga britches.

As to there would be no maps 3 at all but for the streetcar, perhaps. But that's just another way of saying some folks were happily willing to incur .77 billion in taxes if they felt they'd get .13 billion set aside for a pet project, and whatever happens to the rest happens. Then again, that's kinda sorta not far off from what sometimes seems to be happening.

Long live the streetcar. And may it do more than move folks from one set of pubs to another.

[OKCisOK4me]

^^^Make downtown OKC liveable for residents (as is the current process) and it will be used for much more than PI passes.

[MustangGT]

Perfection? No, but I concur with the sentiments expressed. The standard I hold them to is the same standard they set for themselves (calling it a disaster if it failed to meet)

Complete projects:

1) On time
2) On budget
3) As promised

Few if any of the various incarnations of MAPS have met the criteria in whole or in part.

As long as voters keep passing it and don't hold the powers-that-be responsible, what incentive do they have to change the way they over-promise and under-deliver (to put it kindly)?

If and when this occurs further MAPS projects should be approved if they make sense. Agreed that the bungholes that run things over promise and under deliver. Even the arena would NOT have been appproved if the total cost so far was in the original vote. Precisely the type of incrementalism that is part and parcel of the problem. If you cannot get what you want in the original vote keep voting additions until you do. The only value is the money that th earean has brought in. The exposure and good feelings are just weak minded excuses for under delivery.

[hoya]

If and when this occurs further MAPS projects should be approved if they make sense. Agreed that the bungholes that run things over promise and under deliver. Even the arena would NOT have been appproved if the total cost so far was in the original vote. Precisely the type of incrementalism that is part and parcel of the problem. If you cannot get what you want in the original vote keep voting additions until you do. The only value is the money that th earean has brought in. The exposure and good feelings are just weak minded excuses for under delivery.

It's a good thing most people disagree with you. Without MAPS or the arena, we wouldn't have the Thunder. We wouldn't be where we are today.

[Bellaboo]

If and when this occurs further MAPS projects should be approved if they make sense. Agreed that the bungholes that run things over promise and under deliver. Even the arena would NOT have been appproved if the total cost so far was in the original vote. Precisely the type of incrementalism that is part and parcel of the problem. If you cannot get what you want in the original vote keep voting additions until you do. The only value is the money that th earean has brought in. The exposure and good feelings are just weak minded excuses for under delivery.

You are wrong again. I was in Barcelona last year during the playoffs against the Lakers, and when I had my Thunder shirt on, all kinds of people stopped us to talk about them. The same happened in Turkey the year before, it is unreal how a lot of people in the world know we exists. It wasn't this way just a few years back. You obviously are just a hater of some sort, and are in denial of the all around success of the MAPS projects. Larry Nichols of Devon has made the statement several times that if it were not for MAPS, they would have moved to Houston long ago.......tell me if you think MAPS has not been effective enough to keep thousands of jobs in our fair city....I'm glad you only have one vote, as narrow minded as you are on a program that has been touted country wide for its success. There are tons of articles from other cities trying to mimic the success of MAPS.

[ljbab728]

Bump