Streetcar

[Just the facts]

ROFLMAO - Brent Brewer is out of his mind. I would acutally be embarrased to say $23.5 million. They bought it for $375,000 in 1998 so the bidding starts there. I suspect by the time they are done in court they will be wishing they took the $2.5 million offer.

He even had a Latrell Sprewell moment.

“We've been down here for so long, we just want it to be fair,” Brewer said. “This property is important to our family. These kinds of investments are starting to make a return for us, and at the end of the day, we want to be able to support our children.”

I guess $2.5 million doesn't go as far in OKC as I thought it did.

[Pete]

The county assessor has the market value at just under $1.5 million.

A fair price seems to be between $3 - $5 million. Asking $23 million is extortion.

[UnFrSaKn]

Growing Debate Over Transit, MAPS 3 Streetcar System | OKC Central

[Buffalo Bill]

The county assessor has the market value at just under $1.5 million.

A fair price seems to be between $3 - $5 million. Asking $23 million is extortion.

It would be interesting to see what Brent Brewer would think if the Assessor had it valued at $23.5M and he was paying property taxes at that assessed rate.

Don't think that would happen.

[Dubya61]

It would be interesting to see what Brent Brewer would think if the Assessor had it valued at $23.5M and he was paying property taxes at that assessed rate.

Don't think that would happen.

Wouldn't that be an interesting trap. Let's say I'm trying to sell my house and set the price at $200K. County sees that and spot-adjusts my assessed value. After all, I'm there everyday and so I must have a better idea of it's value than the county, eh? Shock. Horror. Indignation. Shame over making a bed I wouldn't want to lay in.

[Just the facts]

It would be interesting to see what Brent Brewer would think if the Assessor had it valued at $23.5M and he was paying property taxes at that assessed rate.

Don't think that would happen.

Not only that but they should ask him how long he thought it was worth $23.5 million and then have him cough up back taxes.

[okcboy]

I wouldn't read into this article to much. This just has to go through a process and i'm sure both parties will come to
a fair price thats in each others best interests.

[BoulderSooner]

I wouldn't read into this article to much. This just has to go through a process and i'm sure both parties will come to
a fair price thats in each others best interests.

or the city will just move forward with the ED process and a panel will set the fair price

[OKCisOK4me]

I wouldn't read into this article to much. This just has to go through a process and i'm sure both parties will come to
a fair price thats in each others best interests.

To the tune of $2.5 million per kid.

[Urban Pioneer]

Folks, if you really care about these issues, this is EXTREMELY important stuff here. Litterally a transcendental opportunity to fundamentally change how things are done. Enough with the pseudo controversy's for now. lol Let's get the inaction on rail issues out of ODOT.

WANTING A BROADER RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM BEYOND MAPS 3 STREETCAR?

Read this from Rep Charlie Joyner.

These initiatives are happening now and needs your help!

1. HB2180 would remove the Rails Division from ODOT and create the Oklahoma Railways Commission whose Commissioners, appointed by the Governor, would be rail experienced and knowledgeable. This act will not grow government but instead makes government smarter and more focused. Oklahoma is seventh in the nation in total tonnage, equaling 882-million tons per year shipped by rail into, from, or through Oklahoma and projections are for it to increase by 88% by 2030. There is also a huge interest in developing and expanding passenger and commuter rail in Oklahoma. I feel it is vital Oklahoma takes these steps looking to its future economic development and recognizing the success of the Space and Aeronautics Commission who was similarly established.

2. HB 2187 establishes the ‘right of first refusal’ on the sale of any rail property owned by the Department of Transportation and being leased or operated by a private entity. This bill if enacted would protect railroad companies that invest millions of dollars in the lines they presently lease, as well as their shippers who have chosen to locate along those lines; shippers who count on the railroads as part of their supply chain and their distribution network. SB584 is a similar bill that I am supporting as the House Author. This is the correct thing to do when dealing with companies doing business with the state of Oklahoma.

As the previous House Vice-Chair of Transportation and presently the House Chair of the Transportation Committee, I have been very involved on issues concerning our Rail industry in Oklahoma. This email is to advise you of the two railroad bills I have authored with Speaker T.W. Shannon as co-author and Senator Mike Schultz as the Senate Principal Author.

Attached are HB2187 and HB2180 for your review. I ask for your support in my effort at strengthening the rail industry in Oklahoma. Please contact your senators, representatives, and Governor immediately, asking for interest and passage of these bills as they are moving through the Legislative process.

Thank you for your consideration,
Charlie Joyner
Representative Charlie Joyner
Oklahoma House of Representatives
District 95

CONTACT YOUR STATE SENATOR OR REPRESENTATIVE AND TELL THEM TO PASS THESE TWO BILLS!

[Plutonic Panda]

I was just about to post that. They seem like very good bills and I hope they pass!!!!!

[Tier2City]

Do you have copies of the bills?

[Plutonic Panda]

I don't, but you can go search them here: WebForm1

Enter either of these bills: HB2187 or HB2180

[Buffalo Bill]

Folks, if you really care about these issues, this is EXTREMELY important stuff here. Litterally a transcendental opportunity to fundamentally change how things are done. Enough with the pseudo controversy's for now. lol Let's get the inaction on rail issues out of ODOT.

WANTING A BROADER RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM BEYOND MAPS 3 STREETCAR?

Read this from Rep Charlie Joyner.

These initiatives are happening now and needs your help!

1. HB2180 would remove the Rails Division from ODOT and create the Oklahoma Railways Commission whose Commissioners, appointed by the Governor, would be rail experienced and knowledgeable. This act will not grow government but instead makes government smarter and more focused. Oklahoma is seventh in the nation in total tonnage, equaling 882-million tons per year shipped by rail into, from, or through Oklahoma and projections are for it to increase by 88% by 2030. There is also a huge interest in developing and expanding passenger and commuter rail in Oklahoma. I feel it is vital Oklahoma takes these steps looking to its future economic development and recognizing the success of the Space and Aeronautics Commission who was similarly established.

2. HB 2187 establishes the ‘right of first refusal’ on the sale of any rail property owned by the Department of Transportation and being leased or operated by a private entity. This bill if enacted would protect railroad companies that invest millions of dollars in the lines they presently lease, as well as their shippers who have chosen to locate along those lines; shippers who count on the railroads as part of their supply chain and their distribution network. SB584 is a similar bill that I am supporting as the House Author. This is the correct thing to do when dealing with companies doing business with the state of Oklahoma.

As the previous House Vice-Chair of Transportation and presently the House Chair of the Transportation Committee, I have been very involved on issues concerning our Rail industry in Oklahoma. This email is to advise you of the two railroad bills I have authored with Speaker T.W. Shannon as co-author and Senator Mike Schultz as the Senate Principal Author.

Attached are HB2187 and HB2180 for your review. I ask for your support in my effort at strengthening the rail industry in Oklahoma. Please contact your senators, representatives, and Governor immediately, asking for interest and passage of these bills as they are moving through the Legislative process.

Thank you for your consideration,
Charlie Joyner
Representative Charlie Joyner
Oklahoma House of Representatives
District 95

CONTACT YOUR STATE SENATOR OR REPRESENTATIVE AND TELL THEM TO PASS THESE TWO BILLS!

Doesn't look like this legislation will change the status quo. If Joyner is looking to repeat the "success" of the Space and Aeronautics Commission, that shouldn't be a problem.

More layers of government.

Joyner's resume looks like that of an uneducated Gary Marrs. Plus, his political talking points are old and tired. Federal government=bad, unless it pertains to keeping Tinker open. Please.

[Urban Pioneer]

"Success" is definitely in the eye of the beholder. I'm not sure what your referring to. It is my understanding that small airports in small towns and cities have flourished as part of the Space and Aeronautics Commission.

ODOT has done very little, if anything, to maximize the interest of the state as it relates to trains. In my direct experience, protecting corridors for anything other than freight is so far removed from their highway building priorities, a bit of independence couldn't even begin to make that worse.

[Buffalo Bill]

"Success" is definitely in the eye of the beholder. I'm not sure what your referring to. It is my understanding that small airports in small towns and cities have flourished as part of the Space and Aeronautics Commission.

ODOT has done very little, if anything, to maximize the interest of the state as it relates to trains. In my direct experience, protecting corridors for anything other than freight is so far removed from their highway building priorities, a bit of independence couldn't even begin to make that worse.

I guess it goes to my point that Joyner has no idea what he's talking about. There is the Oklahoma Aeronautics Commission, and there is the Oklahoma Space Industry Development Authority. The OAC has been around for quite a while, and does good work, by all accounts. It still falls under the direction of Gary Ridley.

My guess is that this new agency will still be under Ridley.

The OSIDA is responsible for the money pit out in Burns Flat.

It all smells of a legislator trying to establish something to get appointments for some of his cronies.

[Urban Pioneer]

Maybe it "smells" that way to you. I can assure you that there is a much deeper level of politics involved in these two bills. Rural cities and towns haven't been well represented by the state in negotiations with the major railroads. The "short line" railroads have been adversely affected through bad representation. There has been a rash of state owned rail property being sold to the major railroads without conditions allowing for future state use.

And of course locally, here in the OKC metro, major decisions such as the sale of the connection to Tinker and the NE line were made to Union Pacific with no oversight. Now we will have to buy it back at a premium.

And this isn't just Joyner. TW Shannon is helping spearhead trying to get this through.

[soonerguru]

Well, I can't read his mind but I've never once had the impression that he didn't like the streetcar project or that he wants to divert those funds.

Either I'm being obtuse or someone is being paranoid. I can't imagine him being happy with less mass transit.


What I have heard him say enough times is that he is concerned that the project isn't getting enough feedback from the community. And maybe it doesn't need more feedback. I think that is his position though.

More perspective: I attended an Urban Neighbors board meeting the other evening. I found it somewhat odd that the neighborhood association for the downtown area hasn't really being involved at all. Now, I blame them as much as anything but I think it is strange to have assumed we have sewed this thing up without having involved certain groups.

Has the Bricktown Association been consulted? I honestly don't know. Just 'asking out loud'.

But if the answer is no, then yeah, I'd say there is room for improvement, shall we say, for increasing deliberation.

I was under the impression we would have the same kind of process the park is now going through. Significant public input through meetings heavily marketed. Why wouldn't we? The Central Park has a Subcommittee too.

The Sidewalks and Trails group specifically leveraged the resources of Neighborhood Alliance to see where each neighborhood would like to see sidewalks included. There was quite a lot of feedback coming in from all around the city. Good feedback.


Whether or not we need more feedback to actually improve the final outcome, I don't know. But I fail to see how following the template of the Central Park process and calling for that kind of discussion is grounds to be concerned about a councilor.

I know I'm looking forward to the opportunity to stand before my peers and voice my opinion about the project and how I feel it could be best carried forward. And I'm in that .01%. I have a pretty good idea of what constitutes a good transit system and what doesn't. I'll happily drop my .02 cents and take my seat as others do the same. It will be up to the Subcommittee and the City Council to take that feedback and decide if any modifications, however slight or major, are warranted.

Think of this like the stage where you've built your prototype. You've put a lot of thought and research into your product up to this point. But every company has to go through that painful phase of having that prototype picked apart. It is an essential part of refining anything. It doesn't mean major modifications are in store. It just means we are moving along in the process and it is time to vet it once and for all.

Is the council calling for something other than that?

Have you had a chance to reevaluate your position on this?

[OKCisOK4me]

UP told me that construction would start on the streetcar route in early 2014. My question is, wouldn't that get delayed just like everything else with this talk of transitioning funds or what not?

[Steve]

Very telling that a diverging viewpoint of how to best serve public transit is quickly chased away from this thread....

[catch22]

I drove through the HSC area the other day...I just can't see a reasonable way to make the streetcar work to that district. Although it has a ton of large buildings, a large employment base, etc. it is not easily walkable. The sidewalks are torn apart in many areas, buildings are fronted by huge parking lots. Wide streets with fast moving traffic circle the district. I went by on a weekday and a Saturday.The weekday was fairly active, lots of cars and buses and a decent amount of pedestrian traffic (for the quality of the sidewalks and generally unappealing walk). The Saturday, however, was completely devoid of life. I was one of a handful of cars driving around, I saw one city bus. I got out and attempted to walk around but with nowhere to really go and being the only human being in the area, I turned around and walked back to my car.

Since the area is difficult to walk (Sure it CAN be walked, but it does not seem to encourage walking), the streetcar would need to make a loop through the entire district. You couldn't put a stop on the edge of the district and count on riders walking to the line. The limited hours of the district would also be, IMO, an unwise investment of tax dollars. This line would only be useful for several hours a day, during the week. After working hours the line would be serving little to no value, and on the weekends ridership would be very low no matter the time of day.

I think in future extensions the HSC is a natural candidate for future expansion because you already have a core system built, and you can connect the HSC line to the core line(s) and maximize ridership through connections.

The currently proposed route is not perfect by any means, I don't think anyone is going to claim that it is. It does however provide the best potential for creating maximum ridership and benefiting the most number of users. You will connect a variety of uses together which will create round-the-clock demand.

You will have the potential ridership of:

CBD Traffic (6a-6p weekday)
Bricktown Traffic (5p-1a with weekend peak)
Convention Center Traffic (Cox and MAPS3) (8a-5p)
Auto Alley Traffic (7a-9p)
Central Park and Myriad Gardens Traffic (10a-8p)
CHK Arena/Cox Arena Traffic (On Operating Days 6p-1a)
St. Anthony Midtown (6a-6p weekday)

Those points are along the route connecting the neighborhoods of Deep Deuce, Bricktown (housing/hotels), and Midtown.

For a starter system this provides the opportunity for the greatest number and variety of potential users over the greatest number and variety of potential time uses.

Also included is the maximizing of potential development. There is an amazing balance between developed lots that would bring life to the line, and a number of empty lots that could build along the line. For subsequent extensions of the line, you can provide niche routes to further button together the transit system, such as the HSC or 23rd street.

That is my opinion of the subject.

[BoulderSooner]

thanks for the post i agree with most of what you said .. i will say that midtown traffic will go quite a bit past 6 .. with the growing housing and entertainment options it should be busy at least as late as AA and maybe as late as bricktown

[Tier2City]

Any kind of line on its own to HSC will be hard to justify for week and day-round ridership. I would argue that pushing through to at least MLK and 23rd at the same time makes a lot more sense and would be more viable.

[Urban Pioneer]

nm

[catch22]

thanks for the post i agree with most of what you said .. i will say that midtown traffic will go quite a bit past 6 .. with the growing housing and entertainment options it should be busy at least as late as AA and maybe as late as bricktown

I meant St Anthony midtown, not the district itself. I agree midtown will itself be more a 24 hr district connected to one of the focal points i listed.