MAPS III??? Light Rail???

[ETL]

Well, there are less monorails than trains, trolleys, and buses. Look at the list of cities that DON'T have a monorail.

[jdsplaypin]

I'm definately down for some high speed train from Stillwater-->downtown OKC. HaHa

[Patrick]

I think you were refering to me and not Mr Anderson with your quote. I am still in favor of rail in OKC. I just get a little frustrated with people using the incorrect terminology. Light rail is a very specific type of rail but many people use it to mean "some kind of rail" system. I have done some aditional readin tonight and light rail is now approaching $50 million per mile. I think there are better ways to spend money.

As I see it, OKC has 4 areas that could use some kind of rail infrastrucutre.

1. Suburbs to downtown/airport
2. Downtown loop to Capitol Bricktown, OU medical, St. Anthony's
3. Adventure district
4. Meridian Hotels to downtown

Here are the modes of transporatation for each:
1. Coloradro Rail Car commuter rail
2. Electric street level trolley
3. Electric street level trolley (could be extension of above trolley or connect to another commuter rail station near Cowboy Hall of Fame)
4. electric trolley running along Meridian with connection to commuter rail on tracks just North of I-40. Could extend all the way to the airport.

Thanks for the clarification Kerry. I'm glad you're still on board. I hoped we hadn't lost you in regards to commuter rail lines for the OKC metro!

BTW, you in Jacksonville now? I'm guessing you moved from Tampa?

[Augie12]

COTPA, who operates MetroTransit, just finished a Fixed Guideway Transit Study for central Oklahoma. The study concludes with a 2030 system plan vision that includes a commuter rail service from Norman to Edmond and from downtown to Tinker. It also includes a modern streetcar circulator that would connect downtown, bricktown and the health center. Bus rapid transit was suggested for the NW Highway, Reno and SW 59th Street, and enhanced bus service for the entire Metro Transit system was also proposed. It's a complete 25 year plan. It's pretty expensive and would take a MAPSIII to fund but to be a big city, OKC needs a big city public transit system.

[Kerry]

Patrick,

I am still on board for rail in OKC. The best time to do it is now while it is still affordable (in a relative sense). Yes I am now living in Jacksonville, FL. Moved up here almost 3 years ago. The OKC rail web site is no longer available. Someone will need to make a new one.

[Kerry]

Now that plans makes sense. In fact, it is the same thing I proposed nearly 6 years ago on the old Oklahoman MAPS message board. I am a little surprised that they are not more agressive on a route that parallels I-40. However, I am still hapy to hear they are working on something.

[Kerry]

Here is the link. Lots of cool stuff. This plan seems further along than I thought. Check it out. Some of the maps take a long to load so be patient.

http://www.okfgs.org/

[Patrick]

I am a little surprised that they are not more agressive on a route that parallels I-40.

A cheap plan already exists for a rail line parallel to I-40. It currently links in with Union Station rail yard. Problem is, the re-allignment of I-40 is destroying all of that. It will cost us so much more to build a new system from scratch.

[ETL]

Why is it going to take 20+ years to complete this transit plan?

[Kerry]

I know a lot of hoopla has been made about the Union station but here is the cold hard truth - it is in the wrong place. No way could that staion be used for any kind of intermodal downtown station. It is simply too far away from where the people want to go.

What would be interesting is if the station could be moved. According to the plan outlined above there is supposed to be an intermodel station at NE23 to serve the capitol. Moving the stataio a few miles would make it a very unique facility.

[Kerry]

Why is it going to take 20+ years to complete this transit plan?

I'll have to do some more reading but my uess is that it is a funding issue. With a MAPS III type funding it could be completed much faster. On a side note - there is a mostly abandonded rail line that goes to the Softball hall of fame from downtown. It would make a perfect rail link to the adventure district. There are a few road crossing where the tracks have been removed and it does cut right through a golf course - but right of way is right of way

[ETL]

That is why MAPSIII should focus on this issue too.

[jbrown84]

There's no way that building could be moved.

[ETL]

There's no way that building could be moved.

Did I miss something? What are you talking about?

[mranderson]

There's no way that building could be moved.

Any building can be moved. It just takes the company with the skill to do it. Watch "Mega Movers" on the History channel and you will see proof of this.

[jbrown84]

Union Station is huge and all stone. I think it would be highly cost prohibitive to move it if it is even possible.

[Midtowner]

Union Station is huge and all stone. I think it would be highly cost prohibitive to move it if it is even possible.

It would probably be cheaper to build a perfect replica.

When our public transportation system expands, it might make an ideal museum/office/event space for COTPA.

I'd personally like to see it developed as an upscale southside event center.

[HOT ROD]

I'll have to do some more reading but my uess is that it is a funding issue. With a MAPS III type funding it could be completed much faster. On a side note - there is a mostly abandonded rail line that goes to the Softball hall of fame from downtown. It would make a perfect rail link to the adventure district. There are a few road crossing where the tracks have been removed and it does cut right through a golf course - but right of way is right of way

I think that is already in the works.

[Kerry]

Any building can be moved. As mranderson pointed out - just watch Mega-Movers. They moved an 18 story building in downtown Pittsburgh to the other end of a block it was on and rotated it 90 degrees - while the employees still worked inside! Take a trp to Lake Havasu City, AZ and you will see the London Bridge. It was moved from London in 1968 brick by brick and reassembled over the colorado river.

And on the Simpsons, they moved the entire city of Springfield five miles down the road when Homer burried trash under the city.

Also, it is usually cheaper to move a building because you all ready own the building materials.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

Why is it going to take 20+ years to complete this transit plan?

Actually, it will take more like 25 years according to the time line in the plan recently developed by Carter Burgess for OKC. The first phase is upgrading the existing bus system, then adding light rail from Norman through Moore to OKC and at about year 15 comes the best part for my money which is the trolley or modern streetcar loop from downtown to Midtown to the HSC to Bricktown then finally extending the light rail further north to Edmond and Guthrie(?). Also in there somewhere is included some express bus service from Tinker to El Reno and a couple of other legs.

A very ambitious plan that requires lots of right of way acquisition, construction time and money. IMO, the plan is fairly comprehensive and the time line could be compressed if there was the political will to do so. Otherwise, it'll be very slow going.

I know a lot of hoopla has been made about the Union station but here is the cold hard truth - it is in the wrong place. No way could that station be used for any kind of intermodal downtown station. It is simply too far away from where the people want to go. . . .

First, Union Station was designated as the City's transit hub in the OKC 2020 Comprehensive Plan, but that language along with lots of other progressive ideas like reserving 1% of the budget for all public works projects for public art and establishing a wide ranging public works design review process were axed at the urging of Mayor Kirk Humphreys prior to City Council adopting the plan in 2001(?). A perfect example of politicians quietly undoing the creative ideas that represented thousands of hours of citizen input through an organized public planning process. And politicians wonder why the average citizen has lost faith in the political process.

But I digress.

According to transit planners who know a lot more about this than I do, a multi-modal or inter-modal or what ever you call it, transit center doesn't need to be located in the urban core to be effective Kerry. Location is not the most important component, the rail corridors are, because they are the most difficult and costly to establish. The other transportation modes such as bus, taxi and trolley are simply accomodated or linked to the transit center. Union Station has big time existing rail corridors and being a few blocks south of downtown is no hindrance at all.

Another big attraction for Union Station as the transit hub is the availability of cheap vacant land for a long term parking garages. No close by, dedicated long term parking exists downtown at Santa Fe Depot. I don't believe that there is even a passenger loading area in the parking lot adjacent to the station.

Fort Worth has an example of a multimodal transit hub right in our own back yard, though it is a little run down. You can take the Heartland Flyer from OKC to Fort Worth and upon arriving at their railway station, which is several blocks south of downtown, get on a rubber tired trolley and go to a downtown hotel. The same trolley system has two or three routes that run through downtown and connect to other areas such the stockyards, the art museums and the zoo. I took the train down to Fort Worth and spent Christmas and New Year there about three years ago; went lots of places, had plenty of good meals, saw lots of stuff and never needed to rent a car. Upon my return to OKC, I had a hell of a time even getting a cab to pick me up at the Santa Fe Depot. Not a user friendly transit hub by any stretch Mr. Brewer.

We're doing a lot of things right in OKC, but we are doing some things that eleminate options and are not the best planning decisions for OKC's future. Just like 1-35 and I-40 come to a crossroads here in OKC, Union Station has the built in potential of being a national rail transportation crossroads. It's not too difficult to imagine the enormous potential in that. But we're in the process of eliminating that possibility from our future.

What gets written here is interesting, but seldom an expert's opinion, my ramblings included for sure. And, in the opinions of many transportation experts that have no vested interest in highway building or real estate development, ODOT and OKC are making a tragic blunder with the Union Station rail yard. There has been no comprehensive long range planning exploring the potential of OKC's Union Station being developed into a southern hub in the existing nationwide rail system. But our state and local officials are staying the course with the existing I-40realignment plan; even though that course is ten lanes of concrete highway headed into a transportation dead end.

[OKCNDN]

Oklahoman's don't ride the bus system enough to support light rail. Oklahomans ingeneral don't use public transportation, they drive to where they are going. That is one things that makes OKC....OKC. I know the only way I would ride the public system is if it was last resort.

OKC doesn't have sidewalks, people don't really walk anywhere because they ride to most places they go to. That would work against a light rail system.

[mranderson]

Oklahoman's don't ride the bus system enough to support light rail. Oklahomans ingeneral don't use public transportation, they drive to where they are going. That is one things that makes OKC....OKC. I know the only way I would ride the public system is if it was last resort.

OKC doesn't have sidewalks, people don't really walk anywhere because they ride to most places they go to. That would work against a light rail system.

Light rail and a bus are two different things. Many cities that offer both have a small bus ridership.

Light rail is a must. Which would you rather do. Pay around three bucks for a train ride or 35.00 a tank for gas? You do the math.

And remember. There are a lot of nay sayers who are eating crow because they said major league sports would not work in Oklahoma City. Personally, I love proving people wrong. I did then, and I bet I do on light rail as well.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

Oklahoman's don't ride the bus system enough to support light rail. Oklahomans ingeneral don't use public transportation, they drive to where they are going. That is one things that makes OKC....OKC. I know the only way I would ride the public system is if it was last resort.

OKC doesn't have sidewalks, people don't really walk anywhere because they ride to most places they go to. That would work against a light rail system.

Those are some of the same arguments made against DART Rail in Dallas. They turned out to be incorrect. If you think tht someone that lives in Norman and works at the HSC won't get on a train to comute to work when gas is $4 or $5 you may be incorrect as well. Also mass transit isn't for everyone and doesn't have to be to be successful. If you don't like it, don't ride it. I don't ride buses either. They don't go anywhere that I want to go when I want to go there, but I would ride a light rail down to Norman to go to an art show or a production at Sooner Theater and have dinner. I don't go to Norman very often because I don't like the drive. Or to Edmond or Gutrie for the same reason. The Dallas suburbs that wern't originally willing to invest in DART are now lined up and begging for light rail. That doesn't automatically mean a light rail from Norman to Guthrie would work, but there is a lot of factual data to suggest that it would and mostly just personal opinions with no basis that assert otherwise.

[Bobby H]

I would like to see Oklahoma City get some sort of commuter rail system. It would also be great if a longer distance commuter rail line could get built, perhaps parallel to the I-44 corridor to link OKC with places like Tulsa, Grand Lake and Lawton-Fort Sill. However, the cost is just so high for any of that stuff for it to happen. Oklahoma City and the whole state has bigger transporation issues to handle.

Some advances really have to be made in making rail construction projects more efficient. The biggest advances required are in the management area. Most new commuter rail efforts these days waste a ton of money and some are even riddled with corruption. A century ago many cities and towns were linked by rail. Trolleys were common in many downtowns. Despite our advances in technology, our society seems more unable than ever to build something as simple as a rail line without it costing a tremendous fortune.

Right now I think Oklahoma City has to prioritize improving its highways and approaching other more modest alternatives on transportation.

The Kilpatrick Turnpike needs to be extended from its western terminus at I-40 and looped on around over to I-35 south of Norman. A number of different highway interchanges need to be rebuilt for higher capacity and safer designs. Some of the highways need to be expanded to support HOV lanes.

Statewide, other roads need serious upgrades. I think US-69 from the Red River all the way to where it hits I-44 northeast of Tulsa should be built to full Interstate standards. Perhaps it should be an extension of I-45. That road has a staggering amount of truck traffic, too dangerous a level for a highway with numerous at-grade intersections. Once the I-49 corridor is built between Kansas City and Joplin, MO the traffic level on US-69 will increase further.

What is Oklahoma City doing with regard to bike paths? Lots of people like the seeming prestige that a subway, monorail or light rail line adds to a city. But bike path networks add just as much prestige at nowhere near the level of cost.

The current transportation bill has $4 billion set aside for bike paths.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

I would like to see Oklahoma City get some sort of commuter rail system. It would also be great if a longer distance commuter rail line could get built, perhaps parallel to the I-44 corridor to link OKC with places like Tulsa, Grand Lake and Lawton-Fort Sill. However, the cost is just so high for any of that stuff for it to happen. Oklahoma City and the whole state has bigger transporation issues to handle.

IMO, the major transportation issue that needs to be addressed is to stop thinking that transportaion is only about building more and wider highways that will only become more congested and less safe. Considering transportation options such as commuter rail is standard practice in many other states and should be looked at more here in Oklahoma. It seems that people get bogged down in all the talk about how highly subsudized railroad transit and other public transportation is when highways are subsudized to at least an equal extent.