Heartland Flyer Problems

[OKCisOK4me]

I applaud your confidence in our city and state leaders. The way things have been going make me nervous.

The AICC was built from the ground up with today's construction costs. The Santa Fe Terminal is already built. Now, if you have seen the plans, there is site work and construction that will be done but this will have more local traffic than your boondoggle tourist trap south and east of town you're so concerned about.

[BoulderSooner]

I applaud your confidence in our city and state leaders. The way things have been going make me nervous.

Please show me something the city has started building and stopped part of the way through

[okcboy]

There are alot of moving parts that have to come together to make this transit dream a reality. I would hate to see a takeover of a private asset be neglected because of not being able to reach the goals outlined in the "study" and only just having it as streetcar stop. Currently, thats all we have money for. It not for certain that we will receive the multimillions that would be needed to make it any more than this.

[ljbab728]

An interesting update on the Heartland Flyer which, despite the headline, indicates that not all is bad.

Heartland Flyer loses more than $43 per rider in 2012, report finds | News OK

[okcboy]

A program that is subsidized by $4M and loses almost $3M looks pretty bad.

[OKCisOK4me]

A program that is subsidized by $4M and loses almost $3M looks pretty bad.

Its a lot freakin better than their food sales!

[Sam Thomas]

"For years he gave Brewer cash from the train's concession stand for leasing the depot and repairs without a written lease". This is false and the contract shown is the one between Amtrak and the State. The Brewers gave the State and Amtrak free rent for over 10 plus years to help with a subsidized service for the citizens. Now the city wants to condemn
the property for just a streetcar stop and a "study" that might not ever materialize on future passenger rail. This facility is currently being used as a transportation hub. If the city needs a streetcar stop build it into the redesign of EK Gaylord.
You don't need this facility for just a streetcar stop. This is the only project that has money at this time. Everything else is blue sky.

He wasn't doing it out of the goodness of his heart. The secret agreement was to give him a cut of the snack money. There was no lease until 2010, but John would give him some cash to help pay for things without the legislature finding out as it would be counted as part of the actual cost of operation, much like the fuel bill, which is just put under ODOT's truck fuel division to hide costs. Here is the contact:

Heartland Contract


If he was just in it to help the city, he wouldn't have locked the doors during the busiest week of 2010 to hurt the Flyer, because he felt he wasn't getting enough money after a million dollar grant:

Oklahoma agency gains control of Santa Fe Train Depot with new lease | News OK

[Sam Thomas]

It's also great for smuggling drugs from DFW to OKC. If you ever see the people getting off on Sundays nights, a lot of them hop off with big bags and get into Escalades with the gigantic rims. Kind of makes you wonder...

[Just the facts]

Here is the problem with Amtrak - they have got drop the long distance trains in favor of regional routes connecting city pairs. The California Zephyr lost $62.6 million last year. That money would be better served building ridership between cities that are too close for air travel.

Yes the Heartland Flyer lost $2.7 million last year but a big part of that is only having it make 1 trip a day. They aren't operating it enough to cover the fixed cost of having it (the train cost the same amount of money whether it is sitting on a siding or moving people). It needs to be making no less the 4 round trips a day between OKC and DFW. In fact, the only reason it goes to Ft Worth one time a day at all is so it can tie into the long distance trains that are losing so much money. Amtrak needs to free the local trains from the shackles of the long distance ones.

[ou48A]

Just the Facts put it nicely, which is why I agreed with him. How bout we just add your Megabus as another mode of transportation. Isn't the all out course to have as many modes available as possible? I mean, if you're really in a hurry to get down there, wouldn't it just be easy to take that regional flight down to DFW? Just cause slow isn't practical for you doesn't mean no one wants it. Now if your gripe is taxing taxing taxing based on the federal government subsidizing this service then I get it, but come on...

Amtrak's Heartland Flyer lost $43 per rider and when you add the train fare in to the figures it becomes very obvious how ridiculously expensive the Heartland Flyer is.

We can get far more bang for our buck in other ways. It would be cheaper to give a small amount od state money to Megabus who is faster and more frequent service; it’s significantly cheaper and has better destinations in our area and they could easily be improved.
The Heartland Flyer is wasteful spending when we already have more efficient transportation options.

Since the Heartland Flyer will no longer be eligible for federal funding to the tune of about 20 percent this becomes even more unpalatable to be spending State money in such a stupid wasteful way.

[OKCisOK4me]

My guess is that you're against the streetcar as well. Do you work at ODOT?

[Just the facts]

Does WRWA only survive on rent, parking, and landing fees?

Do the interstates in Oklahoma survive only on the gasoline tax?

[ou48A]

My guess is that you're against the streetcar as well. Do you work at ODOT?

No, I am not necessarily against streetcars or even Amtrak….

But I am against spending money in stupid ways.
When we already have a system in place it’s very wasteful to duplicate a transportation destination with an inferior product.

Time = money = more taxes collected, so I am far more likely to support streetcars and Amtrak where they help a lot more people save time by reducing congestion. The Heartland Flyer brings no benefit of note that can’t be done better by bus service. It would be much smarter to spend the money and help the thousands of daily riders who would use a central Oklahoma commuter rail system.

[ou48A]

Does WRWA only survive on rent, parking, and landing fees?

Do the interstates in Oklahoma survive only on the gasoline tax?

Ok then, maybe Oklahoma should start subsidizing Stage Coach service to DFW.

[Just the facts]

No, I am just saying that every mode of transportation receives a subsidy, with the interstate highway receiving the most. With regards to AmTrack, it clearly needs to be reorgainzed as a regional rail provider and stop the long distance trains. Of course, the chances of that happening are slim to none which is why I would prefer the State contract with a someone other than AmTrack for the Heartland Flyer.

[venture]

No, I am just saying that every mode of transportation receives a subsidy, with the interstate highway receiving the most. With regards to AmTrack, it clearly needs to be reorgainzed as a regional rail provider and stop the long distance trains. Of course, the chances of that happening are slim to none which is why I would prefer the State contract with a someone other than AmTrack for the Heartland Flyer.

I don't see why the state couldn't go with BNSF for the Heartland Flyer and then also use them for the local commuter rain from Norman to Edmond.

Also good point about the airport. Any airport with schedule passenger service gets access to a huge chunk of change for infrastructure (runways and such) that otherwise wouldn't be available. You also won't find the airports opt out of the money, even if they are able to.

Transportation is pretty much one of those needed services in this country. I agree that Amtrak needs to avoid the long range rail operations UNLESS they are selling them to a tour operator who is marketing it similar to a cruise.

[Just the facts]

All of you might be interested in this article.

Lynchburg-D.C. Amtrak route one of few to turn profit in 2011 - NewsAdvance.com : Local News

[Larry OKC]

Please show me something the city has started building and stopped part of the way through

OKC history is replete with examples, so he has reason to be concerned. Most only recall recent history and MAPS. Granted they built all of the projects, but most, if not all, were 1) NOT as promised, 2) NOT on time, 3) NOT on budget. We are seeing the same thing happening with MAPS 3 (Trails, Sidewalks, Senior Aquatic Centers, Convention Center, Transit Hub).

[ou48A]

Some of the MAP’s money for schools has not gone as far as they planned and has caused significant changes to plans in some locations.

[ou48A]

I found twice a day Meagabus service to Dallas for as cheap as $1.00 fare.
I found twice a day Meagabus service to Saint Louis for as cheap as $3 fare.

With a very limited amount of state subsidy help they could probably offer more frequent and faster service to more in state destinations, with better departing and ending points for a far cheaper price than the Heartland Flyer.

[Snowman]

I found twice a day Meagabus service to Dallas for as cheap as $1.00 fare.
I found twice a day Meagabus service to Saint Louis for as cheap as $3 fare.

With a very limited amount of state subsidy help they could probably offer more frequent and faster service to more in state destinations, with better departing and ending points for a far cheaper price than the Heartland Flyer.

That is part of their normal promotions to attract new customers, build loalty and spreads the passenger load. if few are signed up yet it is cheep, it averages out to around twenty dollars

[kevinpate]

I found twice a day Meagabus service to Dallas for as cheap as $1.00 fare.
I found twice a day Meagabus service to Saint Louis for as cheap as $3 fare.

With a very limited amount of state subsidy help they could probably offer more frequent and faster service to more in state destinations, with better departing and ending points for a far cheaper price than the Heartland Flyer.

Even the rates that are not heavily discounted are very reasonable, more than reasonable even. My youngest who recently moved back from Dallas has made round trips on megabus and its affiliate partner for under 3.00 and up to a high (thus far) of 40.50 (upcoming RT bought on only 3 days advance purchase.)
So far even the high end ticket comes in at less than the RT gas necessary for an efficient four banger, plus no driving hassles and wi-fi most of the trip.

[Just the facts]

I found twice a day Meagabus service to Dallas for as cheap as $1.00 fare.
I found twice a day Meagabus service to Saint Louis for as cheap as $3 fare.

With a very limited amount of state subsidy help they could probably offer more frequent and faster service to more in state destinations, with better departing and ending points for a far cheaper price than the Heartland Flyer.

Ask yourself - how are they able to offer fares that low? Do you think it might be possible they are receiving some kind of federal assistance that you don't know about? I have a suspicion that the bus service is a front to gain carbon tax credits to off-set their other profit operations which would be heavy penalized in Europe.

[Praedura]

Extension north to Wichita?

Wichita, KC, OKC mayors support Heartland Flyer passenger rail expansion through Kansas | Wichita Eagle

[Praedura]

More on this from bizjournals:

Wichita, OKC, KC mayors sign joint letter of support for OKC-Wichita passenger rail - Wichita Business Journal

The idea being a full passenger rail link from Kansas City to Dallas.
Ok, it's just three mayors signing a piece of paper. But hey, look what the three tenors accomplished.


The article also links to another good piece about the Union Station in Wichita and what its new owners have in mind for it:

Union Station's buyers see vital 'connector' between arena, Old Town - Wichita Business Journal

Some nice photos of the station in the gallery.