Streetcar

[Snowman]

That said, didn't the city have a rainy day fund of something like $60 million or was that a state fund?

The state has one that is around 600 million, I have not heard about one for the city.

[BoulderSooner]

The most interesting aspect to me from last night's symposium is that Shadid stated that the reason OKC has not received federal funds matching what MAPS will raise for the streetcar route is because operational costs have not been allocated for the project. That said, where would this come from? Also, the bus system would cost $1.5 million to run on Sundays. Surely that was a yearly figure? That said, didn't the city have a rainy day fund of something like $60 million or was that a state fund?

Anyway, I have to ask you UP if the current proposed route (which was handed out on fliers last night) was one which was set up by just the Streetcar Committee or like Mr. Walker discussed where you have actively involved those along the route and if there was going to be a specific amount of their property tax going toward and in addition to the MAPS taxes collected for the project?

He might have said that but it is not close to the truth. As for the route. It is a slight variation of the AA route with adjustments for the park transit hub and convention center

[OKCisOK4me]

He might have said that but it is not close to the truth. As for the route. It is a slight variation of the AA route with adjustments for the park transit hub and convention center

Please enlighten me at a time when it is not so late

[betts]

The most interesting aspect to me from last night's symposium is that Shadid stated that the reason OKC has not received federal funds matching what MAPS will raise for the streetcar route is because operational costs have not been allocated for the project. That said, where would this come from? Also, the bus system would cost $1.5 million to run on Sundays. Surely that was a yearly figure? That said, didn't the city have a rainy day fund of something like $60 million or was that a state fund?

Operational costs have not been allocated for the project, because they don't need to be yet. The city budget is annual, and the O&M costs won't be allocated until they are needed. The streetcar will also be able to self-fund some of its O&M costs with advertising on trains and at stops. The potential for additional income from mixed use at the transit "barn" is also possible. No one in a position of authority has ever said publicly that O&M funding won't be available. Quite the contrary. Hearing that we weren't getting federal funding is a bit like getting a bad diagnosis from your doctor, in that once you hear it you don't hear anything else that was said afterwards. I don't precisely remember the reasons given for not getting federal funding, although you always wonder if the reasons you're given are the real reasons anyway. I believe, and may stand corrected, that the primary reason we were told we didn't get federal dollars to extend the streetcar was because we don't have an existing system in place. I remember thinking: "Salt Lake City got our original streetcar funds and, because they have an existing system, now they're getting the additional funding." If the lack of O&M funds would have been the primary reason, I'm sure I would have remembered that discussion. Either argument by the feds is a bit of a catch 22 regardless.

Anyway, I have to ask you UP if the current proposed route (which was handed out on fliers last night) was one which was set up by just the Streetcar Committee or like Mr. Walker discussed where you have actively involved those along the route and if there was going to be a specific amount of their property tax going toward and in addition to the MAPS taxes collected for the project?

The streetcar is a MAPS project and, like all MAPS projects, is funded by sales tax collection. The other funding method discussed by Mr. Walker is a funding source used in other cities. The city indirectly benefits from the streetcar, just like it has indirectly benefited from other MAPS projects, in that we have seen and can expect more development along the route, which raises sales tax and property tax revenues for the city.

[OKCisOK4me]

Thank you Betts for the informative answer! Hopefully the streetcar advertising won't be like the bus route advertising as I was surprised to learn that 100% of those profits go back to the companies and none to the city to operate the bus routes.

It was nice to see you again and to meet Jeff. Having known that it is funded by MAPS, I didn't know if in addition to that kind of funding for the start up cost for the project, if there was an additional way to add money to it. Sometimes, the collections tend to come in a bit shy of what was projected, so I was hoping for an additional allocated funding source.

[Buffalo Bill]

Saw this recently and thought it of interest to those on this thread:

Smart Choices, Less Traffic | Beyond Oil

Sierra Club gives high marks to the redevelopment of the Santa Fe Station and it's transportation connections.

[Of Sound Mind]

The most interesting aspect to me from last night's symposium is that Shadid stated that the reason OKC has not received federal funds matching what MAPS will raise for the streetcar route is because operational costs have not been allocated for the project.

I'll ask again the question I've asked before regarding this project, which seems dependent on federal funds for it to succeed: What happens if the federal funding never materializes? Given the federal budget woes once again made glaringly obvious with the sequester, should any transportation project move forward with so much uncertainty about what may or may not materialize in federal subsidies if that project is in fact dependent on federal assistance?

[Urban Pioneer]

The MAPS 3 Streetcar and Transit Project is not dependent on Federal Funds for success. We were never guaranteed to win funds. The reason that Federal Funds were ever discussed is because of of our profound "local match", many thought our eligibility to receive matching Federal Funds would be significant. However there was a lack of understanding that our solution to streetcar annual O&M costs (proposed to be funded through the City's annual budget) was not considered a stable long-term solution in providing a commitment to the Federal Government that their potential investment in us would be assured daily operation.

Now we are looking at advertising, Santa-Fe Station space leasing, parking garage dedicated revenues, and discussing the merits of TIF's as more stable solutions to enhance our eligibility in upcoming Federal Funding opportunities to expand the route and effectiveness of the MAPS 3 streetcar system.

Such initiatives to do often require a legislative partner such as one of or Congressman or Senators to gain support as well. So that is also a factor. Also the overall availability (size) of the Federal Transit dollars.

But no, MAPS 3 stretecar success is not dependent on Federal Funding. Hope this helps.

[Urban Pioneer]

Thank you Betts for the informative answer! Hopefully the streetcar advertising won't be like the bus route advertising as I was surprised to learn that 100% of those profits go back to the companies and none to the city to operate the bus routes.

It was nice to see you again and to meet Jeff. Having known that it is funded by MAPS, I didn't know if in addition to that kind of funding for the start up cost for the project, if there was an additional way to add money to it. Sometimes, the collections tend to come in a bit shy of what was projected, so I was hoping for an additional allocated funding source.

It was good to meet you too and please see the above post.

[Of Sound Mind]

The MAPS 3 Streetcar and Transit Project is not dependent on Federal Funds for success. We were never guaranteed to win funds. The reason that Federal Funds were ever discussed is because of of our profound "local match", many thought our eligibility to receive matching Federal Funds would be significant. However there was a lack of understanding that our solution to streetcar annual O&M costs (proposed to be funded through the City's annual budget) was not considered a stable long-term solution in providing a commitment to the Federal Government that their potential investment in us would be assured daily operation.

Now we are looking at advertising, Santa-Fe Station space leasing, parking garage dedicated revenues, and discussing the merits of TIF's as more stable solutions to enhance our eligibility in upcoming Federal Funding opportunities to expand the route and effectiveness of the MAPS 3 streetcar system.

Such initiatives to do often require a legislative partner such as one of or Congressman or Senators to gain support as well. So that is also a factor. Also the overall availability (size) of the Federal Transit dollars.

But no, MAPS 3 stretecar success is not dependent on Federal Funding. Hope this helps.

Yes, that does help. Thank you.

[BoulderSooner]

I'll ask again the question I've asked before regarding this project, which seems dependent on federal funds for it to succeed: What happens if the federal funding never materializes? Given the federal budget woes once again made glaringly obvious with the sequester, should any transportation project move forward with so much uncertainty about what may or may not materialize in federal subsidies if that project is in fact dependent on federal assistance?

the maps 3 project doesn't "need" federal money to succeed (it would have been nice to build a bigger system right away) we have funding for a very good starter system .. and with the next maps vote coming very soon after the street car opens there will be a very good chance and voting for more money to expand the street car

[Hutch]

Thank you Betts for the informative answer! Hopefully the streetcar advertising won't be like the bus route advertising as I was surprised to learn that 100% of those profits go back to the companies and none to the city to operate the bus routes.

It was nice to see you again and to meet Jeff. Having known that it is funded by MAPS, I didn't know if in addition to that kind of funding for the start up cost for the project, if there was an additional way to add money to it. Sometimes, the collections tend to come in a bit shy of what was projected, so I was hoping for an additional allocated funding source.

I'll try to further help clear up the misinformation that is being propogated by some claiming that the City doesn't have or know where it's going to get the necessary operational funds for the streetcar.

I attended Councilmember Ed Shadid's Transit Workshop on Monday. At the beginning of the meeting, the Councilman suggested that the streetcar may not even be built due to the fact that the City has no funding in place to pay for operation of the system. Later in the meeting, Councilman Shadid's hired bus consultant Jarrett Walker repeated the same misinformation, at which point Assistant City Manager Laura Johnson spoke up and set the record straight by saying that Oklahoma City's operational funding needs are allocated annually through the budget approval process, and since the streetcar system is not constructed yet and ready for operational funding, that item will not be included in the annual budget until the fiscal year in which the operational funding becomes necessary. It's not that the City doesn't have the funding to operate the system. It's that the City hasn't budgeted the operational funding yet because that's how the budget process works.

I then attended the Transit/Streetcar Subcommittee meeting on Wednesday. Near the end of the meeting, subcommittee member Jane Jenkins, who was also at the workshop on Monday and heard the same explanation, began raising the operational funding question again and suggested that the streetcar project shouldn't be built until operational funding is in place. Based on the way the budget process works, what she suggested would result in never building the streetcar because the City couldn't start construction until the operational funding was budgeted, but the City couldn't budget the operational funding until the streetcar was constructed and ready for operational funding. City Manager Jim Couch was also in attendance, and at that point he clearly decided it was time to put to rest all of the misinformation and nonsense being spread around about not being able to fund the operational costs of the streetcar. Mr. Couch stated in no uncertain terms that (1) he will have no problem allocating the necessary $3-4 million operational funding required for the streetcar out of the more than $400 million that is available for such expenses out of the annual budget and (2) he will not cut funding for the bus system in order to pay for the operational requirements of the streetcar, which is another false charge being propogated about the streetcar project along with accompanying accusations that the City will be sued for violating federal discriminatory laws if we build the streetcar system.

This all reminds me of the story of someone who doesn't understand or doesn't want to understand certain meteorological processes because they dislike the weather, and who walks outside on a very foggy morning and starts running up and down the street trying to convince his neighbors that the sky is falling.

We all sincerely care about developing a great transit system, both bus and rail. It does none of us any good if we allow the transit community to be spit into separate corners and pitted against ourselves based on misinformation and differing personal opinions about the various transit technologies.

[BoulderSooner]

well said Hutch

[adaniel]

As someone who doesn't follow all of the intricate details, thanks for the update. There really does seem to be a lot of misinformation out there (including a lot on this board) so the real story without the bs is nice to hear.

[BoulderSooner]

At least "Couch says". I'm good now.

never mind not worth the time ....

[CaptDave]

Just giving him a hard time. I know, it was a low blow.

I don't actually disagree with most of what he said. I just thought the Couch comment was too tempting.

It is refreshing for Mr Couch to step up in that manner though. Honestly, that statement allays most of the concern I had about never seeing a streetcar running down an OKC street. I disagreed with him strongly on some other issues, but you must give credit where credit is due.

[OKCisOK4me]

Jeff said that construction on the streetcar will start Spring of 2014. Guys, that will be here before we know it. Any chance that O&M costs, if not funded out of the $400 million annual budget, as Couch so eloquently put it, or advertising, could be funded by a MAPS type tax? Seems something like that could go a long way and be covered for years to come.

Also, a question I've had in mind (please either Jeff or Betts answer this since they're on the committee), will there be a free zone, kind of like Portland's street car in their central central district? Also, will there be day passes that you purchase at an automated stand with your card or over the internet or will there be cash purchasing stands, say at the intermodal hub?

Thanks for the answers!

[Urban Pioneer]

I think the closest a tax like you describe could be implemented is something like a BID or so forth. It would take leadership on Downtown OKC's part since they just re-did the BID. BID being Business Improvement District.

Regarding fares... Fares in the best scenario in other parts of the country have only generated offsets of 14% or less. And fares decrease ridership. I think most of us would like to see the entire 1st phase streetcar system be fare free and paid for with advertising, leasing space, parking revenues, or if council does continue to support, out of the general fund if necessary. Ultimately all costs being resolved through a Regional Transit District and a major voter initiative for a permanent funding source for bus and rail including the streetcar system. Too early to give you a specific answer.

[soonerguru]

Seriously regretting my decision to support -- and actively campaign for -- Ed Shadid. Some of you were right about him.

[Tier2City]

Ah - I was wondering how you were coping.

[soonerguru]

I'll try to further help clear up the misinformation that is being propogated by some claiming that the City doesn't have or know where it's going to get the necessary operational funds for the streetcar.

I attended Councilmember Ed Shadid's Transit Workshop on Monday. At the beginning of the meeting, the Councilman suggested that the streetcar may not even be built due to the fact that the City has no funding in place to pay for operation of the system. Later in the meeting, Councilman Shadid's hired bus consultant Jarrett Walker repeated the same misinformation, at which point Assistant City Manager Laura Johnson spoke up and set the record straight by saying that Oklahoma City's operational funding needs are allocated annually through the budget approval process, and since the streetcar system is not constructed yet and ready for operational funding, that item will not be included in the annual budget until the fiscal year in which the operational funding becomes necessary. It's not that the City doesn't have the funding to operate the system. It's that the City hasn't budgeted the operational funding yet because that's how the budget process works.

I then attended the Transit/Streetcar Subcommittee meeting on Wednesday. Near the end of the meeting, subcommittee member Jane Jenkins, who was also at the workshop on Monday and heard the same explanation, began raising the operational funding question again and suggested that the streetcar project shouldn't be built until operational funding is in place. Based on the way the budget process works, what she suggested would result in never building the streetcar because the City couldn't start construction until the operational funding was budgeted, but the City couldn't budget the operational funding until the streetcar was constructed and ready for operational funding. City Manager Jim Couch was also in attendance, and at that point he clearly decided it was time to put to rest all of the misinformation and nonsense being spread around about not being able to fund the operational costs of the streetcar. Mr. Couch stated in no uncertain terms that (1) he will have no problem allocating the necessary $3-4 million operational funding required for the streetcar out of the more than $400 million that is available for such expenses out of the annual budget and (2) he will not cut funding for the bus system in order to pay for the operational requirements of the streetcar, which is another false charge being propogated about the streetcar project along with accompanying accusations that the City will be sued for violating federal discriminatory laws if we build the streetcar system.

This all reminds me of the story of someone who doesn't understand or doesn't want to understand certain meteorological processes because they dislike the weather, and who walks outside on a very foggy morning and starts running up and down the street trying to convince his neighbors that the sky is falling.

We all sincerely care about developing a great transit system, both bus and rail. It does none of us any good if we allow the transit community to be spit into separate corners and pitted against ourselves based on misinformation and differing personal opinions about the various transit technologies.

Hutch. You may want to share this information with Steve, as he seemed to parrot Shadid's misinformation in his online chat today on NewsOK.

[Steve]

There is no misinformation; at this point, there has been no allocation of money by the Oklahoma City Council for operation of the streetcar system. The city council, which decides such matters, has not decided the source of such funding. I understand fully, and I've pointed out in the past, that the city manager intends to recommend it be funded from the general fund. But that has yet to be decided. Ditto for source of funding for the park and convention center.

[BoulderSooner]

There is no misinformation; at this point, there has been no allocation of money by the Oklahoma City Council for operation of the streetcar system. The city council, which decides such matters, has not decided the source of such funding. I understand fully, and I've pointed out in the past, that the city manager intends to recommend it be funded from the general fund. But that has yet to be decided. Ditto for source of funding for the park and convention center.

And as of now the city council has no way to fund it as they don't pass future budgets. They pass them one year at a time. The police are also not funded for 2017 Or the firemen that get payed from the general fund

[Steve]

I realize this is a very strong advocacy group in this thread. But I won't report what isn't true. The city council has made NO policy decision, has had NO presentation, on even the idea of using the general fund or any other funding source for a new streetcar system. The city council has for decades had a policy on how it funds public safety and other departments. This question isn't unique to the streetcar system - it's true for several of the MAPS 3 projects. Add it all together, as I've been told by several sources, and we're looking at a potential hit of up to $20 million a year from the general fund for the new venues. Can the city handle that expansion in spending during good years? Can it handle it during down years? I've not heard this discussion.

[OKCisOK4me]

So basically it's here say on what Couch may or may not have said...

Now, Steve, wouldn't it be true that once no more MAPS taxes are run and downtown has more of a work force presence as well as residential status, that a more plentiful annual budget be available for all these O&M ventures whether it be streetcar, central park, etc.? If not, where do you see these monies being drawn from...besides the aforementioned advertising or what not?