Heartland Flyer Problems

[Sam Thomas]

It seems John Doherty is leaving ODOT for health reasons and not a moment too soon. I found the 2008-2009 contract between ODOT and Amtrak and it For years he gave Brewer cash from the train's concession stand for leasing the depot and repairs without a written lease. No bills or invoices just cash changing hands. Here's the contract:

heartland contract.pdf


Wow. No physical bills for the train's diesel fuel from the supplier, just a typed invoice. It must appear on ODOT's regular fuel expenditures, not under the Flyer's operating costs to make it seem less expensive to the legislature.

The contract’s Oklahoma Passenger Incentive says that ODOT will receive $10 per passenger for every passenger over a certain base amount (Page 7). For fiscal year 2009, the base ridership agreed to was 70,000 with any riders above that amount leading to a $10 stipend to the state. In the news it was a record year with over 81,000 riders. Where is the cash from this? There has never been a check written for record ridership.

The Heartland Flyers seating capacity is 201 every day, with 3 passenger cars (Except for OU/ Texas football weekend where there are 2 extra cars). In 2011, the Flyer reported ridership of 84,000. This would mean the train carried 230 people per day. Unless the train is counting round trip tickets as two separate tickets, this would be impossible. It is even unlikely the train is half full every day on the way to Dallas and back (100 tickets sold to go to Dallas and 100 to come back the same day.) Using this accounting method to count riders when they purchase a round trip ticket as 2 is unlawful when state money is involved. It is the same as counting a person twice when they go through a toll booth since they entered and exited it. It is probably the reason why Amtrak is not writing the state any checks for record ridership. There must be a secret agreement on the actual ridership, so no checks are written because of the Oklahoma Passenger Incentive from the contract.

It's nice to have it, but you can't run a state funded operation this way. It's illegal to just give cash to people without receipts and hide spending in other divisions to make your operating costs seem lower.

[catch22]

Round trip tickets are two people.

Not because they got on and got off. It's because they got on twice. Once in Oklahoma City, once in Dallas.

84,000 is accurate, meaning 84,000 trips were taken. It does not mean all 84,000 originated in OKC or Dallas respectively. A one-way would be counted as one rider, because they got on the train once. Round trip would be counted as two because two separate trips were taken. "Round trip" is just an easier way to sell tickets as a package instead of having the person buy two one way tickets through separate transactions, they can purchase a return trip under the same transaction.

[ou48A]

It’s time for the state to save money and let Megabus replace the Heartland Flyer.
It’s faster, cheaper, has more frequent service and has better ending destinations that could be moved to even better locations.

[OKCisOK4me]

It’s time for the state to save money and let Megabus replace the Heartland Flyer.
It’s faster, cheaper, has more frequent service and has better ending destinations that could be moved to even better locations.

You do that, then you kill the dream of connecting OKC with either Kansas City via Wichita or Tulsa or having a direct route through Tulsa to St. Louis. The ultimate goal is for HSR and we'll never get there by wanting to be cheap about it.

[Dubya61]

Yeah, but are we nobly clinging to our dream of HSR or any of the intermediate goals while hemorraging money?

[Just the facts]

Since the parent company of MegaBus is Coach USA, which is a wholly owned subsidary of Stage Coach Group, which is the largest private rail operator in the UK the State should contract with them to take over the Heartland Flyer route instead of contracting with Amtrak.

[OKCisOK4me]

What is Oklahoma's share of the cost to operate the Heartland Flyer as it is? I've read that if extended to Newton, that that cost would be $4.4 million shared equally by the states, so add 2.2 to what Oklahoma's current operating cost is. That's paid by every Oklahoman...which is what? $4 out of your pocket? Big whoop. Keep Heartland Flyer.

I concur with JTF...awesome!

[bombermwc]

The problem with the flyer is that it's incredibly slow. It takes so much longer to get to the DFW area than by bus, and when you get there, you have to take DART over to actual Dallas, whereas the bus takes you right there.

It's the same old battle we're going to be fighting in OKC with commuter rail. Until it's a FAST rail and can beat the cars there, it's just not going to catch on. With the 50 stops it makes on the way, there's no chance for it to either get up to speed, or beat a car.

Bottom line, the Flyer isn't for commuters, it's for train romancers. It's cool and all...it's just not practical.

[Just the facts]

or don't want to spend $4 every 18 miles driving to and from Dallas.

[BoulderSooner]

OR, maybe for people who don't own a car?

those that want to get to dallas and don't own a car will most likely take the bus

[ou48A]

You do that, then you kill the dream of connecting OKC with either Kansas City via Wichita or Tulsa or having a direct route through Tulsa to St. Louis. The ultimate goal is for HSR and we'll never get there by wanting to be cheap about it.

Killing the very slow Heartland Flyer doesn’t kill the dream of HSR…..
If anything spending money wisely enhances its remote possibility for our area.
In the meantime all of those locations and more could be served far more effectively and implemented much quicker by a bus service such as Megabus.

[ou48A]

Megabus is a discount bus service. You do realize how many of those have come and gone right?

That’s no excuse to continue spending money that could be spent in much smarter ways….

We could even take some of the money we save to help Megabus with its service by providing low cost bus stops in good locations.
We could use some of the saved money to help build up our local transit systems that would likely transport far higher numbers of people.

[ou48A]

those that want to get to dallas and don't own a car will most likely take the bus

Your right…but people can also rent a car or fly......There are options!
Heck, I know people who have hitchhiked to Dallas.

[Just the facts]

Well no doubt about it OU48A. There is definitely a built-in subsidy to driving yourself that rail transit has a hard time competing against. Maybe if rail manufactures got all of the favorable tax benefits auto manufactures got and we had a network of 2.5 million miles of taxpayer funded tracks rail might be a better alternative. Then throw in a military industrial complex ready to kill anything that drove up the price of a train ticket and who knows what we could have.

Bottom line - there is a lot more cost that goes into driving a car (or bus) from OKC to Dallas than what is in the gas tank. Personally, I think we spend too much tax money keep the current system alive when a cheaper alternative is availble - but that is just me.

[BoulderSooner]

Your right…but people can also rent a car or fly......There are options!
Heck, I know people who have hitchhiked to Dallas.

no i agree .. my point is if the heartland flyer ended it wouldn't stop people from getting to dallas without a car

[Rover]

Well no doubt about it OU48A. There is definitely a built-in subsidy to driving yourself that rail transit has a hard time competing against. Maybe if rail manufactures got all of the favorable tax benefits auto manufactures got and we had a network of 2.5 million miles of taxpayer funded tracks rail might be a better alternative. Then throw in a military industrial complex ready to kill anything that drove up the price of a train ticket and who knows what we could have.

Bottom line - there is a lot more cost that goes into driving a car (or bus) from OKC to Dallas than what is in the gas tank. Personally, I think we spend too much tax money keep the current system alive when a cheaper alternative is availble - but that is just me.

And yet, almost all those countries with more developed highway systems are the wealthier countries and those with less developed systems are poorer.

Highways paved (per capita) statistics - Countries compared - NationMaster

We have benefited from great movement of goods from and to a wide area where assets can deploy near their most efficient locations. Rail system development BY ITSELF doesn't insure better economic growth. While moving raw goods by train is certainly efficient, there is still a network of roads needed to move goods to more defined places. So, development of more railways doesn't eliminate the need or cost of also having roads. This is not a either or issue.

Your crusade seems to be to eliminate cars, trucks, roads, streets. It is NEVER going to happen.

[Just the facts]

This just in - people with 90" TVs are wealthier and people with 19" inch TVs are poorer.

Your crusade seems to be to eliminate cars, trucks, roads, streets. It is NEVER going to happen.

The car culture will kill itself. It doesn't need my help. I would just like another transportation system in place when it dies.

[BoulderSooner]

This just in - people with 90" TVs are wealthier and people with 19" inch TVs are poorer.



The car culture will kill itself. It doesn't need my help. I would just like another transportation system in place when it dies.

it might or it might not .. but we won't know for another 100 years

[OKCisOK4me]

The problem with the flyer is that it's incredibly slow. It takes so much longer to get to the DFW area than by bus, and when you get there, you have to take DART over to actual Dallas, whereas the bus takes you right there.

It's the same old battle we're going to be fighting in OKC with commuter rail. Until it's a FAST rail and can beat the cars there, it's just not going to catch on. With the 50 stops it makes on the way, there's no chance for it to either get up to speed, or beat a car.

Bottom line, the Flyer isn't for commuters, it's for train romancers. It's cool and all...it's just not practical.

Tell me you wouldn't take a one way trip to Dallas via Fort Worth for $27. There are tons of people on that train more than you know, varying ages too. You should try it sometime and find out for yourself how many people on the train are not romancers. Also, there are tons of people where that situation may be ideal and practical for them.

Killing the very slow Heartland Flyer doesn’t kill the dream of HSR…..
If anything spending money wisely enhances its remote possibility for our area.
In the meantime all of those locations and more could be served far more effectively and implemented much quicker by a bus service such as Megabus.

Just the Facts put it nicely, which is why I agreed with him. How bout we just add your Megabus as another mode of transportation. Isn't the all out course to have as many modes available as possible? I mean, if you're really in a hurry to get down there, wouldn't it just be easy to take that regional flight down to DFW? Just cause slow isn't practical for you doesn't mean no one wants it. Now if your gripe is taxing taxing taxing based on the federal government subsidizing this service then I get it, but come on...

[okcboy]

"For years he gave Brewer cash from the train's concession stand for leasing the depot and repairs without a written lease". This is false and the contract shown is the one between Amtrak and the State. The Brewers gave the State and Amtrak free rent for over 10 plus years to help with a subsidized service for the citizens. Now the city wants to condemn
the property for just a streetcar stop and a "study" that might not ever materialize on future passenger rail. This facility is currently being used as a transportation hub. If the city needs a streetcar stop build it into the redesign of EK Gaylord.
You don't need this facility for just a streetcar stop. This is the only project that has money at this time. Everything else is blue sky.

[Just the facts]

Now if your gripe is taxing taxing taxing based on the federal government subsidizing this service then I get it, but come on...

If taxation was his concern than anything that used I-35 would be out of the question.

[BoulderSooner]

"For years he gave Brewer cash from the train's concession stand for leasing the depot and repairs without a written lease". This is false and the contract shown is the one between Amtrak and the State. The Brewers gave the State and Amtrak free rent for over 10 plus years to help with a subsidized service for the citizens. Now the city wants to condemn
the property for just a streetcar stop and a "study" that might not ever materialize on future passenger rail. This facility is currently being used as a transportation hub. If the city needs a streetcar stop build it into the redesign of EK Gaylord.
You don't need this facility for just a streetcar stop. This is the only project that has money at this time. Everything else is blue sky.

The city doesn't want it for a "stop". It is the future transit hub. And it will be aquired

[okcboy]

It is already a transit hub. Just don't want another Indian Cultural Center situation to happen.

[BoulderSooner]

It is already a transit hub.

All the more reason. For the city to own it

[okcboy]

I applaud your confidence in our city and state leaders. The way things have been going make me nervous.