Bricktown Tonight

[fsusurfer]

I *HOPE* that when the new police station opens more officers will be on patrol..police on every corner would be nice. If the problems keep occuring, Spyce needs to go. Lets be honest, Spyce does not fit well being placed right next to the Wormy Dog, its a recipe for disaster... and frankly, I never saw these types of problems before Spyce opened. I'm not the only one who feels like this..all my neighbors in bricktown feel pretty much the same way. I have heard that the bar owners have been having meetings excluding the owners of Spyce to figure out ways to keep the Spyce crowd from overflowing into their bars. I can tell you this, I'm not "scared" to be in bricktown, but I am a lot more carefull about where I am certain times of night than I ever used to be the past four years. It will be interesting to see how things go the next few weeks. Hopefully, EVERYONE is safe.

[BDP]

What does Spyce do that attracts 17 year old gun play??? I'm seriously asking. I know nothing about this place and this thread is the first I have heard of it.

Also, shouldn't the Wormy Dog have to close down, too, if it's part of the mix of the problem? Again, I haven't been to Wormy Dog, but I do know what it is.

Were these suspects at a club before the incident?

Basically, I would just like a straight line connection between what happened and a specific club before we go closing down people's businesses.

Maybe we should close down Crossroads because it seems to attract some of the same activity?

[fsusurfer]

What does Spyce do that attracts 17 year old gun play??? I'm seriously asking. I know nothing about this place and this thread is the first I have heard of it.

Also, shouldn't the Wormy Dog have to close down, too, if it's part of the mix of the problem? Again, I haven't been to Wormy Dog, but I do know what it is.

Were these suspects at a club before the incident?

Basically, I would just like a straight line connection between what happened and a specific club before we go closing down people's businesses.

Maybe we should close down Crossroads because it seems to attract some of the same activity?

I think the main problem Saturday night was the Reggae Fest which can attract all ages. Wouldnt bother me one bit to see that event discontinued. As I've stated about Spyce, I never saw the types of things go on before the club opened that have been going on since the club opened. How about stand on the corner of Joe Morgan and Sheridan at about 1:45am on a Friday or Saturday and then let me know what you think.. Of course there are always isolated events, but this has been a continuous problem over the last few weeks. I never said it should be closed immiedatly, but if a club attracts a crowd that deteriorates the rest of the area, then yes, please close it. As far as Crossroads, closing that place wouldn't bother me one bit..you'll never catch me there because of the activity aformentioned.

[Easy180]

I would think this incident was from those at the Reggae fest more than the club mentioned...also said a 14 yr old was detained as well so I'm pretty sure at least this time it wasn't club related

but if I lived in the Bricktown area I would definitely be concerned if a club was attracting thugs of any race

[fsusurfer]

but if I lived in the Bricktown area I would definitely be concerned if a club was attracting thugs of any race

Thank you, that is exactly my point

[okcboy]

This was the eleventh year for this event in Bricktown. Along with the other BT festivals held within the same amount of time, the
number of attendees have been in the millions with no incident. These events have contributed to the success
of the area. Also, a landlord can't discriminate a tennant or just close a business because of suspect activity or get into a lawsuit. This is a loitering, crusing, gang, and juvenile problem from people that do not plan to patronize the area or the events.(basically after 11pm on Sat. nights). The police know these types of profiles. They need to staff up and get out of their cars and handle it accordingly. Just the increased police prescence (cars and lights) alone does not affect these types of people. They need to be identified and convinced they are not welcome.

[fsusurfer]

This was the eleventh year for this event in Bricktown. Along with the other BT festivals held within the same amount of time, the
number of attendees have been in the millions with no incident. These events have contributed to the success
of the area. Also, a landlord can't discriminate a tennant or just close a business because of suspect activity or get into a lawsuit. This is a loitering, crusing, gang, and juvenile problem from people that do not plan to patronize the area or the events.(basically after 11pm on Sat. nights). The police know these types of profiles. They need to staff up and get out of their cars and handle it accordingly. Just the increased police prescence (cars and lights) alone does not affect these types of people. They need to be identified and convinced they are not welcome.

I agree! Police presence would be the best thing to curb these types of problems as I believe that most of the problems come from people who never meant to patrionize the clubs/bars in the first place. As far as closing a business, hopefuly no establishments have to be closed but should continuous problems arise in or ouside of a nightclub, the city does have authority to close down a club and can be influenced by other local owners. As I've said before hopefully things will settle down. No one likes to feel unsafe in their own backyard.

[okcboy]

I totally agree. There are lots of other issues
($$$$,politics,race,election year) that they might be at play when its comes to fixing this. Which makes
it tough to deal with.

[Dungeon Master]

As myself being the owner of the Dungeon ride, I close the doors between 10:00pm and 11:00pm mainly because after that is when the serious drunks/gangs get active and stupid. I should not have to do this but to protect my ride, my employees and my patrons as well, I close the doors to eliminate or at least lower the chance of anything going bad.
As for this past Saturday night, I'm glad I left at 11:30pm as I exit the ride from the same alley (behind Hooters) that a gun was fired off. That could have been me that got shot at.
Also, on the night of the Bedlam game there at the ball park a month or so ago, there were fights and arrests made then too (and yes, I had to deal with a drunk going thru my ride trying to tear things up). That was at 10:30pm. I realize things will happen, but
until the police step it up a notch, I will do the same thing I'm doing now. No need taking a risk to stay open later just to earn a few more bucks. It's not worth it.
Just my thoughts,

[walnut]

The question was posed earlier about how the new condo owners will feel about the recent developments in Bricktown...

I live in Deep Deuce now and have purchased one of the condos being built...and I am VERY concerned. It really has just become a problem over the past few months.

Deep Deuce and my future complex do have secured entrances and parking, but that doesn't do me much good if I can't leave the place on foot.

With concerns about my property values and one of the biggest perks of living in the area being jeopardized...I feel like I need to do something myself.

Anyone have any suggestions on anything I can do as a concerned citizen?

[jbrown84]

This was all over the news tonight. The police are going to have two dozen officers patrolling Bricktown and more lighting is going to be added. Hogan also said he will be adding his own security in LB.

[BDP]

Wouldnt bother me one bit to see that event discontinued.

Well, it's pretty much my favorite music festival downtown and it is one of the oldest. It would bother me greatly if it was shut down and that would signal a great failure for bricktown and possibly signal its demise, imo.

on the night of the Bedlam game there at the ball park a month or so ago, there were fights and arrests made then too

And maybe I missed it, but I don't recall threads calling to take that event out of bricktown. Why didn’t those events have the same reaction?

As I've stated about Spyce, I never saw the types of things go on before the club opened that have been going on since the club opened. How about stand on the corner of Joe Morgan and Sheridan at about 1:45am on a Friday or Saturday and then let me know what you think

Association does not prove causation. I am all for preventing the incidents with fair and legal means. However, closing down people's businesses is an extreme measure and, imo, should only be used as a last resort if a straight line connection can be made to the establishment or if the club itself was a part in criminal activity. Closing down a business sends a signal that all of the owners in the area are responsible for everything that goes on outside of their businesses. That increases their liability 10 fold and would surely decrease the motivation for investment in the area. Basically, you'd have to crazy to serve alcohol at all under that precedent.

I know I would close my store today if I was responsible for everything that happened in its vicinity or for what people did after they left it.

So, the key here is obviously balance. Increased police visibility (beat walkers that is, not just more drive-by policing) and more lighting is sure to help in my opinion (it is amazing how much security more light bulbs provide). Bricktown is a place where any entertainment venue should be able to thrive in safety. Cooperation is key and keeping any businesses out of the loop is sure to only increase the problems and limit bricktown's viability. I can guarantee you the owners of Spyce do not want this activity surrounding their business either.

These are not insurmountable problems and they can be solved without mobs or forced closings.

[BDP]

Anyone have any suggestions on anything I can do as a concerned citizen?

I am pretty sure that the reaction to these events may result in making it one of the safest neighborhoods in the city. Also, a neighborhood watch and private security can help. I am guessing that the resulting neighborhoods north of bricktown will be very community minded and close socially. I wouldn't worry about it right now (but you could use it to get a better price )

[fsusurfer]

Well, it's pretty much my favorite music festival downtown and it is one of the oldest. It would bother me greatly if it was shut down and that would signal a great failure for bricktown and possibly signal its demise, imo.

It’s pretty obvious the events from Saturday night had a connection to the Reggae fest. Trying not to at least say there is some corolation is ridiculous. 4 shootings in one night when there has NEVER been a shooting in Bricktown before. I live in Bricktown, I don’t care for events that attract this type of activity..maybe we should move it to your neighborhood. I don't care what event type it is, if it attracts the types of crowd that we had Saturday night and puts my safety at risk, Id like to see it canceled...or maybe move it to a place where people whod like to see it can pay for it..like the frontieer city or the zoo.


Closing down a business sends a signal that these all of the owners are responsible for everything that goes on outside of their businesses. That increases their liability 10 fold and would surely decrease the motivation for investment in the area.


Your damn right I care about what goes on outside their business (im talking within close distance here, I understand they shouldnt be responsible for EVERYTHING). What goes on outside their business is my neighborhood. If they are attracting a crowd that is deteriorating the condition of the neighborhood then they don't need to be in business in the first place. I'm not saying that Spyce is 100% to blame, I'm taking the wait and see approach, but I do find it odd that there’s a coloration between the opening of the club and the recent problems we've had, and things myself and other local residents have seen.

[Easy180]

it's easy to play it pc and say we shouldn't come down on a particular club...but these people live there...thinking some may have just a little bit of a different opinion if a troublesome bar opened up a couple blocks from your home

and also there is a big difference between fistfights and shootings...big difference

[bandnerd]

Coloration or correlation? Was that a Freudian slip, fsusurfer?

Just giving you a hard time. Believe me, I understand that living next to an area where there has been increased violence is unsettling and unnerving. I've been in that position before.

Of course, I live near the county jail lol. Surprisingly low amounts of crime over here

[Midtowner]

People have to be in total denial if they think that they can enjoy an urban lifestyle without there being an element of a higher risk of crime. The crime is part of the urban lifestyle. But, if they want to lower property values over there because of it, great! I'll buy one of those places for a bargain if offered!

[OklaCity_75]

Midtowner let me hit you with this one....

Would the city be able to roll back the under 18 curfew in that area or city wide if they dedicided to do so? (10 pm on weekdays, 11 pm on weekends)

Second, could the city establish no loitering zones from 10pm to 2 am?

Another thing that would probably help elminate the problem with youth violence and gangs in the city is banning the 18 to enter 21 to drink clubs.

Could any of these be done without the city facing lawsuits?

[fsusurfer]

It's easy to play it pc and say we shouldn't come down on a particular club...but these people live there...thinking some may have just a little bit of a different opinion if a troublesome bar opened up a couple blocks from your home

and also there is a big difference between fistfights and shootings...big difference

That is very true. I'm not saying Spyce is the root of all problems. I've been there and enjoyed myself when the club first opened and I know people who go there who are definatly not out to cause problems. However, recently I have noticed things going on outside the club and conditions begin to deteriorate. It's natural to link the two together when you’ve resided in an area for 4 years, never had to worry about walking down certain areas with your girlfriend and now all of a sudden do.

People have to be in total denial if they think that they can enjoy an urban lifestyle without there being an element of a higher risk of crime. The crime is part of the urban lifestyle. But, if they want to lower property values over there because of it, great! I'll buy one of those places for a bargain if offered!

Well, I’ve never had to worry about safety in the four years I’ve lived there until recently. With the amount of rent/mortgage people living downtown are/will be paying the city should do what it can to make sure downtown residents are safe, and don’t host events where safety is a problem and let establishments open doors that attract thugs. One of the slogans for Maywood park is.. “reinvent a trip to grandmas” Who’s going to want to go spend the night with grandma if they have to worry about a shooting or gang fight.

[fsusurfer]

I have to say also, with the amount of attention this story has gotten, I do believe things downtown will get cleared up. Sometimes, something like this has to happen to wake people up and realize how nice we've had it the last few years and to not take it for granted. My main concern is everyone; residents, club-goers, and families have a safe, fun enviornment to live in and go out in.

[Midtowner]

Midtowner let me hit you with this one....

Would the city be able to roll back the under 18 curfew in that area or city wide if they dedicided to do so? (10 pm on weekdays, 11 pm on weekends)

Second, could the city establish no loitering zones from 10pm to 2 am?

Another thing that would probably help elminate the problem with youth violence and gangs in the city is banning the 18 to enter 21 to drink clubs.

Could any of these be done without the city facing lawsuits?

I think these could all be done. Curfew especially. I'm not really sure that these things will be very helpful.

For example -- curfew. Curfew laws are a lot like gun laws. The only people who obey them are law abiding citizens. A 14 year old who thinks it's okay to pop a couple caps in someone's leg is not going to be dissuaded from doing so by a curfew law. Kids with no real parental supervision are not going to obey these laws. The only people who will observe these laws are good kids. Quite a few industries make quite a bit of money entertaining teenagers after 10PM on weeknights. I think that the bad that we *know* would happen certainly outweighs the potential good -- but could it be done with little legal resistance? Probably yes.

No loitering zones -- don't see why not. I'm quite sure these exist in other cities. The trouble to me is what occurs when enforcement in these no loitering zones becomes extremely selective? Are officers going to go out of their way to make sure and arrest x number of white kids for loitering in order to prove that they aren't discriminating? Or are they going to arrest a greater proportion of people of color and be pulled into a discrimination suit with Jesse Jackson and company taking up hotel space and TV time painting OKC as a racist town? I think these could be helpful, but the enforcement aspect has me a little worried. Loitering is such a subjective thing...

The kids involved in this recent violence as I recall were all minors. Therefore, 18 to enter doesn't seem to be even remotely relevant here. If a kid is old enough to take a bullet for me in Iraq, I have a hard time telling him that he can't go into a club. I doubt that would help at all, but again, you asked me about lawsuits, and I don't think there would be any except maybe by the 18 to enter clubs.

I'm not familiar with that type of law, but imposing big restrictions on a business after it opens designed to sabotage their profit (or at least having that result) might be a problem. I can see there being litigation there, and depending on the specific facts, it could go either way.

[BDP]

maybe we should move it to your neighborhood.

That'd be fine. But it'd still be a failure for bricktown. I was going to the reggae fest at least 12 years ago (didn't get shot)

What goes on outside their business is my neighborhood.

OK, now we see the down side of housing near bricktown. They're going to start trying to dictate what goes on in bricktown. I have seen this everywhere I live. There's an autonomous entertainment district that pops up and then it becomes cool to live there and then the people living there begin to complain about the entertainment district.

OK, this is a bad example because it was a shooting, which is different, but I predict we do see complaints about bricktown from the new residents, like noise and late night traffic. It always happens.

and also there is a big difference between fistfights and shootings...big difference

So fist fights are okay and appropriate for bricktown? A business is responsible for someone shooting someone else, but not for hitting someone else? They're either responsible for the actions of their patrons or they're not.

If they are attracting a crowd that is deteriorating the condition of the neighborhood then they don't need to be in business in the first place.

Fist fights deteriorate the area. People who drink have fist fights. Drinking causes fist fights. No drinking in bricktown.

Who dictates this stuff?

it's easy to play it pc and say we shouldn't come down on a particular club

I'm not being freaking PC. That is such BS. I own a business, so I take it very seriously when people start wanting to shut down businesses because of what they feel it is responsible for. They've decided they don't like its crowd and they want it shut down. A seemingly unrelated shooting happens and they use it to suggest getting rid of the business they wanted gone. It’s horrible to think about letting the city cherry pick who stays in business or not.

Until I see a connection to the event or to the club, any talk of forcing someone out of business is ridiculous. Excluding the allegedly responsible business from security discussions is even more stupid. In my mind, this is a bricktown security issue, not the problem of one event or club. Thankfully, that’s how it seems to be addressed. Cities across the country have diverse and thriving entertainment districts (many in much seedier settings), that are safe for any club and any event. We can have one, too and do it without putting people out of business.

[fsusurfer]

That'd be fine. But it'd still be a failure for bricktown. I was going to the reggae fest at least 12 years ago (didn't get shot)

Canceling one troublesome event would not constitute a failure for Bricktown in 99% of peoples minds.


OK, now we see the down side of housing near bricktown. They're going to start trying to dictate what goes on in bricktown. I have seen this everywhere I live. There's an autonomous entertainment district that pops up and then it becomes cool to live there and then the people living there begin to complain about the entertainment district.

OK, this is a bad example because it was a shooting, which is different, but I predict we do see complaints about bricktown from the new residents, like noise and late night traffic. It always happens.

Your right, residents will and should have a voice about what goes on in Bricktown as we are some of the main investors. Sorry, the city and business owners can’t have it both ways. If the city is going to encourage building of upscale housing in hopes to make the district more upscale, then the residents should have a say about the type of environment they live in (to a point). In turn the residents will provide money to the local businesses. As a business owner, you can’t have it both ways and think you can open any type of club or store you want, reap the benefits, and expect residents to sit on their hands if they don’t like the type of crowd it attracts. (I do think that most residents moving in downtown understand the enviornment they are going to live in, and this wont be a problem for many businesses/bars/clubs)


Fist fights deteriorate the area. People who drink have fist fights. Drinking causes fist fights. No drinking in bricktown.

Who dictates this stuff?

Again, if a club is attracting illegal activity on a constant basis on or around the premisis, the city, with pressure from local residents is in authority to do something about it.

[bigjkt405]

Spyce is only a fraction of the problem. There were several other clubs were the troublemakers hug out, but they closed leaving Spyce as one of the last few placed (I'll say it) for young blacks to hang out. I know the owners of Spyce and previously had thought about opening a club down there. But the key is how do you keep the criminal element away. As previously noted, look at the ages of these accused, they are nowhere near the age to get into most of the clubs in Bricktown.

[okcboy]

BDP is right on target. Kelly Ogle was right on target.
I wish I was more computer savy. I have some very
interesting pictures from the whole event that would
shed some light here. I'm just not smart enough to
figure out how to post them. They show the loitering. They show the diffence in the "punks" and a typical
spyce customer. They show the age diffences. And they
show that increased presence (just by cars and lights) doesn't effect these types of people. FSU, I encourage you to go down their this saturday around eleven and check it out. I'm hopefull these people have got the message and their won't be much to see