Downtown OKC thriving, but what about the rest of OKC?

[progressiveboy]

With all the major development and investment taking place in DT it seems that the rest of OKC is only gaining "some" ground. First, Downtown OKC is the front door to the city so we want outsiders to see a vibrant, modern central business district and OKC has certainly gained much accolades for this and is to be commended! Now what about the other segments of OKC? Do you feel it is being neglected at the cost of Downtown? Examples being shoddy roads all over the city, run down neighborhoods, landlords not making any investments in their properties. Dilapidated buildings and run down apartments buildings that should be bulldozed! What are some of your thoughts on how OKC can play catchup with it's infrastructure needs and nice, aesthetic development?

[Spartan]

We've always had shoddy roads and rundown neighborhoods, even back when we completely ignored downtown at the benefit of the rest of OKC. We know how successful that strategy was for us. We know how successful this strategy is for us. Investing in the heart of the city results in by far the greatest ROI.

Besides once-nice suburban decline is the result of continued sprawl and not downtown. We need a home building moratorium or a geographic growth boundary in order to maintain what we have. The same actions that built these now declining burbs in the 60s, 70s, and 80s have led to newer ones that can't compete because someone can and will always go out further.

[Architect2010]

I dunno. In the area I live, which is South Walker, I've been pleasantly surprised by improvements the city and a couple local businesses have made. My neighborhood is quite old, my house being built in 1941 along with a lot of homes on my street. Sadly, the area in general has long been neglected, even though the homes themselves have actually been pretty well maintained save a few unfortunate eye sores.

However, in the past few years there's been noticeable improvement. The 44th St corridor has never looked better, and we very much appreciate the sidewalks and the upgraded look of the area as a result. The circular intersections and old lampposts are eye-catching and I'm very sure the local business appreciate the attention to the aesthetics. Variety Health Center also bought the old Lafayette Elementary at 44th and Walker about half a decade back, and have since just recently completed a new OKC park that focuses on health, an historically-sensitive addition to the building, as well as a full renovation of the original structure plus some very nice landscaping. It's a fantastic anchor to the east end of the streetscape and a vital resource to the surrounding community. Also planned from the 2007 GO Bond is for my neighborhood to be resurfaced and a sidewalk added. I do believe that Walker from 44th to 59th will also be gaining a sidewalk from either the GO Bond or MAPS3. I'm not sure when this will begin for my area, but they have completed similar work in other inner-Southside neighborhoods as well and they look terrific. Surrounding schools such as my Southeast, Capitol Hill, Parmalee, Lee, Webster, and others have all undergone or are currently undergoing renovation. The Southern Oaks library just reopened after a lengthy makeover and the building looks GREAT! It has been PACKED every day since. I'm seeing old apartment complexes renovated and vacancies filling up in once-desolate shopping centers that have also seen face-lifts in the past few years.

I really feel as if the inner-city is enjoying some well-needed TLC. I'm loving every bit of it.

[boitoirich]

That's the price of sprawl, and whether or not we live in those far-flung areas it is something that we all pay for. The costs of making capital improvements to 620 square miles is prohibitive. It has been mentioned earlier the ROI is relatively low as well so there is little incentive to attempt to do so. I go back to the words of Jeff Speck in an interview he did with the Atlantic Cities about post-war, auto-centric neighborhoods:

"So many of these places are unlovable and therefore not savable, nor worth saving. Why should a postwar sunbelt "city" that consists of nothing but cookie cutter chain stores, cubicle farms, and ticky-tacky houses claim our attention, when we have hundreds of historic downtown cores with underused infrastructure, beautiful buildings with empty upper floors, and great social amenities like churches, restaurants, cafes, and pubs..."

The experience on the ground bears out. While I enjoy walking no matter where I am (in a city, in the countryside, in a walker's paradise, along an inhospitable STROAD), I clearly see how investments made in Bricktown, the CBD, and Midtown are more worthy than investments that could be made along NW Expressway where I actually live. These efforts have benefited the entire metro area, rather than just a few thousand people who happen to live in a particular subdivision. Perhaps the failure, if there has been one, of our civic leaders, city planners, and urban cheerleaders has been the inability to articulate that to the people who feel neglected by the city's rightful focus on the core.

Lastly, I would say that the city definitely has disappointed me with its focus on the convention center over the quality of life measures from MAPS 3. Sidewalks and trails should have been the first item tackled, as no matter where I go in OKC everyone is clamoring for more sidewalks. Giving greater attention to this desire might have done more to satisfy citizens that those who have power and influence are looking at QOL issues for the entire city and not just the downtown area.

[Mississippi Blues]

I second Architect2010. I have family in the Walker & 44th area and they've made some nice upgrades to the area.

[RickOKC]

City improvements for the urban core and suburban areas do not have to be an either/or proposition. Synergy is created when disparate groups work together for mutual benefit. The downtown core is benefiting from the tax dollars spent in the dreadfully suburban parts of town, and the suburbanites benefit from having cool destination restaurants and entertainment venues downtown (not to mention the renewed pride of city). That synergy is disabled when people create a scramble for the proverbial last piece of pie. Sure, there is only so much money to go around and wise choices have to be made regarding its distribution, but there is limitless "attention" that can be given - limitless energy and potential. I agree with Spartan; the city should recognize it's feasible boundaries and enforce them. However, that doesn't mean that existing and in-fill suburban development is the evil enemy of all that is good in Oklahoma City. Conversely, I also agree with those who suggest that excessive attention may be given to the Convention Center. But that doesn't mean that the MAPS 3 emphasis upon downtown investment is disproportionate and somehow neglectful of other parts of the city.

[adaniel]

^^
Good post. The OP thinks that somehow we have to choose between city and suburban for targeted improvements and that's just not the case.

I will say that the 2007 bond measure is greatly improving infrastructure around town but because its not sexy stuff you aren't going to see posts about on OKCTalk. Even my grandparents long neglected neighborhood off of NE 23rd is finally seeing some improvements in the past few years.

[boitoirich]

Conversely, I also agree with those who suggest that excessive attention may be given to the Convention Center. But that doesn't mean that the MAPS 3 emphasis upon downtown investment is disproportionate and somehow neglectful of other parts of the city.

I definitely agree with this -- I do not support the premise that we are ignoring our suburban areas. I also think that if the civic leaders had shown more urgency for the sidewalks/trails and senior aquatic centers, projects that both would be dispersed throughout they city, it might have done more to inspire confidence that MAPS is for the entire city. I worry that the way we go about handling this iteration of MAPS might lead to an aversion to vote for more projects after these are completed. We've already got people running for council vowing to slow down the investments we're making in our core -- a position that really should be unthinkable at this point. I'd have a hard time seeing voters support this kind of candidate if other projects that might actually touch their neighborhoods were given more consideration.

[Plutonic Panda]

Great post Rick!!!!

[G.Walker]

The Memorial/Quail Springs corridor has great commercial development outside of the urban core with nice modern office buildings, quality homes and apartments, and diverse shopping and eating choices.

[boitoirich]

I enjoy the developed parts of OKC outside of the core. Furthermore, I live in an area of sprawl (Council/Wilshire). Just a short drive, bike ride, or jog from here is the Lyrewood area, infamous on these forums along with several other areas of NW Oklahoma City. While I would love for these areas of the city to enjoy the good fortune currently blessing the downtown area, the investment needed to do so would be difficult to compel. The reason for that is the sheer size of this city. That is not to say that the area should be ignored, and I don't think that it is. Many people that I hear in passing do lament the investments going into Bricktown rather than into their own neighborhoods; I disagree, and I believe nearly every participant here does as well.

However the money that we are raising to improve OKC only goes so far, and there will be winners and losers. A primary example is the plan for sidewalks. Council members Skip Kelly and Pete White voiced opposition to the sidewalks master plan because some wards of the city would be nearly left out completely. So there are certain times when development unfortunately becomes a zero-sum game. In those times, you have to favor development that gets you more bang for your buck.

I wish the parts of the city that are presently underdeveloped or falling apart could see more investment, and I do believe OKC is trying its best to spread the love (improvements to NE 23rd and Walker/44th have already been mentioned). It is just unfortunate because a city of this size will always have a bigger challenge on its hands than a more compact place would.

[rezman]

I have the same feelings as far as our city leaders currently thinking that life revolves around the downtown area. In an effort to become a "Big League City" many parts of the city are being neglected. I did not vote in favor of the latest MAPS 3, but I must say the transformation downtown has been tremendous. Between the MAPS projects, and the stagering investment from the private sector, downtown is no longer the blighted area it once was.

That being said, there is more to Okc than downtown. 607 square miles worth. When all of the MAPS3 projects are completed, what would we want in a MAPS 4 should there ever be one?. This city has to focus on roads and infrastructure. If we true ly want to be a big league city, and invite new business and industry, we have got to address these issues that are all over the Oklahoma City. If there is to be a MAPS 4, it needs to be solely for roads and infrastructure. Nothing else. And not downtown either.

[zookeeper]

The best investment for Lyrewood would be an added police presence. You know, build a temporary division right in the middle of the hood.

[boitoirich]

The best investment for Lyrewood would be an added police presence. You know, build a temporary division right in the middle of the hood.

temporary?

[Plutonic Panda]

I think once OKC get it's core in shape, it will really start to focus on the "rest" of it.

[ThomPaine]

I thought this article about Montgomery County (DC Suburb) was interesting. Not sure if this was the best spot for it, but it looks like an issue parts of our metro is dealing with concerning downtown.

Montgomery County looks to get hip - The Washington Post

Bianca Blomquist, 24, a lobbyist who lives in Columbia Heights. “Went up to eat there a couple of times. Wasn’t bad. Seemed all right for a suburb . . . It’s kind of cookie-cutter. At least I perceive it to be that way a little more.”

Would she consider living there?


“Maybe after 35, but I’ve never perceived myself as an in-betweener. I either want an urban setting or a rural setting. But the in-between? I don’t like it that much.”


Officials also want to take a look at liquor laws that have left Silver Spring and other parts of the county “under-barred,” as one planner put it, meaning a shortage of places for people to meet and drink.

[Just the facts]

I shake my head when I hear people say we can have a city both for cars and for pedestrians. No city in the world has accomplished this - ever. Heaven knows Le Corbusier tried though.

[Plutonic Panda]

Now, why can't you make a city for both cars and pedestrians? That just sounds unreasonable.

[catch22]

The space devoted to making vehicle transit fast and efficient makes it very inefficient and dangerous for pedestrians.

[Plutonic Panda]

Can't you balance it out? I mean, not giving either or the advantage with the exception the core areas, give the pedestrians the advantage obviously. When I think of OKC, I imagine downtown, but I also think of the metropolitan area as well. Just like when I think of Dallas, I think of Fort Worth included.

[Just the facts]

You let me know if you find a metro area anywhere in the world where traffic flows freely and pedestrians can get to everything the need. Downtown OKC tried it by following IM Pei who was a follower of Le Corbusier. They created very wide one-way streets to move traffic rapidly and then moved pedestrians to elevated skywalks, underground tunnels, and interior arcades. We saw how that turned out.

[LandRunOkie]

Conservative state lawmakers are pushing to harshen the penalties for driving without insurance. Doesn't strike me as a bad idea but shouldn't there be something constructive done as well? If we are going to impound peoples' cars and fine them up to $1000 for driving without insurance, shouldn't we give them a reasonable alternative? The numbers I am familiar with are that it takes $10 million per mile to construct/rebuild a 4 lane road and $2 million per mile to build sidewalks. If the money from driving w/o insurance tickets went to funding sidewalks it would be more popular and less oppressive.

[boitoirich]

The space devoted to making vehicle transit fast and efficient makes it very inefficient and dangerous for pedestrians.

This is absolutely the case. Bricktown is a prime example: it is at once the most walkable part of the city as well as it's biggest nightmare for motorists. In contrast is NW Expressway -- usable by cars and a terrible host for pedestrians.

[Snowman]

This is absolutely the case. Bricktown is a prime example: it is at once the most walkable part of the city as well as it's biggest nightmare for motorists. In contrast is NW Expressway -- usable by cars and a terrible host for pedestrians.

There are many days the Expressways hardly feels better in cars

[Steve]

I get uncomfortable when this sort of topic comes up ... I see it as a misunderstanding of how reinvestment in the urban core benefits the entire city, and also skips over what's been done for the rest of the city.
Consider that southeast Oklahoma City benefited greatly from the decision to buy the old General Motors plant and retrofit it for Tinker expansion, or that southeast Oklahoma City is seeing hundreds of new high paying jobs coming in with the city's successful recruitment of Boeing. And can anyone deny that quality of life was improved in far west Oklahoma City with the new Council Road/I-40 junction, or the city's assistance in bringing the new factory outlet mall to town? Miles and miles of roads are being widened and repaved in northwest Oklahoma City, where the new Patience Latting Library opened on NW 122 is arguably the best one in the city. NE 23 has seen millions spent cleaning up the corridor and making it a better stretch for commercial redevelopment. The city has also helped bring the JFK neighborhood back to life with dozens of new modern homes being built among the older residences. The city has invested millions in the Softball Hall of Fame in northeast OKC, a greatly under-appreciated venue that helps support restaurants and shops in the Adventure District.
The city is looking at how to turn around fortunes along I-240 in southwest Oklahoma City, which some might argue is a victim of uncurbed sprawl. Likewise, some would argue that Lyrewood Lane is a victim of sprawl that took place in the 1970s. Could Memorial Road go the same direction in 20 years?
I don't know.
I can tell you that redevelopment of the urban core is "viral." I've seen with my own eyes how redevelopment of downtown has spurred investment in the former Skid Row (now known as Film Row), Paseo, NW 23, Lincoln Heights Neighborhood, Mesta Park, Stockyards, and numerous historic neighborhoods stretching from NW 23 to Crown Heights.
As a city, we've been allowing continued sprawl while also trying to fix the damage done by past sprawl, all as the ongoing sprawl ends up leading to new problems. Yes, some may argue this is not the ideal way to progress as a city. But some may also argue that with the OKC school system still falling short (despite several hundred million being invested by the city in schools throughout the city), those sprawl areas in the overlapping boundaries of suburban school districts are what have allowed the city to enjoy continued growth in population.
And remember, the argument goes, if your population isn't growing, you're dying.
Walkability is great. And it's entirely possible that the embryonic efforts downtown can spread in the same way MAPS triggered a wave of investment as I've detailed. Public transit is obviously needed, and most agree it's entirely weak in OKC. But I've not seen the sort of momentum with public transit that will result in funding for transit that will cover all 622 square miles in OKC. Supporters of the streetcar system argue (stop me if this sounds familiar), start with the urban core, and create the momentum that will allow it to spread.
I realize this is a very long and complicated post that probably includes things for both sides of this debate to pick apart. But from my almost 20 years of experience covering this issue, it's not an "either-or" question between downtown and "the rest of OKC."