Streetcar

[Just the facts]

When you make it single track scalability becomes really difficult.

[Hutch]

How about this?

Effective streetcar systems are not designed based on widely-spread, one-way circulating loops. They either invole double-tracking of a primary transit corridor or use of one-block wide couplet designs involving two primary corridors or a combination of both.

The problem with widely-spread, one-way circulating loops is that they require users wishing to travel only a short distance in a direction opposite of the circulation pattern to ride the entire distance of the circulating loop to get to their destination. As a result, many people will simply not use the streetcar.

[Hutch]

I'd remove any E/W deviation and just stretch it as far N/S as I could get it.

Based on what factors, function or purpose?

[OKCisOK4me]

Effective streetcar systems are not designed based on widely-spread, one-way circulating loops. They either invole double-tracking of a primary transit corridor or use of one-block wide couplet designs involving two primary corridors or a combination of both.

The problem with widely-spread, one-way circulating loops is that they require users wishing to travel only a short distance in a direction opposite of the circulation pattern to ride the entire distance of the circulating loop to get to their destination. As a result, many people will simply not use the streetcar.

The current preferred route only has double tracking on EK Gaylord from Sheridan south and on the Boulevard to Robinson...that's all of what, half a mile?? So tell me what the big difference is.

[ljbab728]

The current preferred route only has double tracking on EK Gaylord from Sheridan south and on the Boulevard to Robinson...that's all of what, half a mile?? So tell me what the big difference is.

Note that Hutch said double tracking or use of one-block wide couplet design. Much of the route is a one-block wide couplet.

[OKCisOK4me]

Note that Hutch said double tracking or use of one-block wide couplet design. Much of the route is a one-block wide couplet.

Gonna have to look these concepts up on YouTube since no one here can share their understanding of what we all think everyone else should already know.

[BoulderSooner]

The current preferred route only has double tracking on EK Gaylord from Sheridan south and on the Boulevard to Robinson...that's all of what, half a mile?? So tell me what the big difference is.

did you even read his response?

Gonna have to look these concepts up on YouTube since no one here can share their understanding of what we all think everyone else should already know.

or read this thread

[betts]

Couplets are streetcar lines going opposite directions one block apart. The idea is that people will be willing to walk one block to get to the line going the other direction, but in Oklahoma City, walking 3 to 5 blocks to get to the line probably won't happen. That's the problem with a loop, as Boulder Sooner outlined. Walking the one block between the lines generates foot traffic for the street perpendicular to the route and so potentially will encourage development of the side streets. Since streetcars travel in the same lanes as cars, if you have double track, it potentially disrupts traffic more than a single track..

Regardless, the preliminary route is now being evaluated by Jacobs Engineering, and while your input at public meetings will be sought early this summer, I don't believe the final route plan that will go to Council for approval is far off. So, posting suggested routes on this thread or anywhere else is probably too late. If people want to talk about where or if the route should be extended, perhaps with MAPS 4 or some other funding source, that might be a better place to invest effort. However, until we know what the approved route will be, even talking about extensions will have to be limited to generalities.

[Urban Pioneer]

I can totally understand Sid Burgess's and OKCisOK4me's differing perspectives.

A straight N/S line is much more legible on a map and easier to understand. Generally, a street like Robinson is such a "spine" you could develop a very efficient "light rail type" line all the way from Capitol Hill up to the Paseo. There is some real merit to that kind of legibility and intuitiveness.

OKCis OK4me's perspective is not all that different than what was actually initially proposed in the 2005 Fixed Guideway Study in which the streetcar was a "circulator". In that concept the idea was a giant loop trying to connect major destinations.

The problem is the initial starter budget. I personally believe that the importance of having two key dense "anchors" at the each end of this starter system are important. And what better anchors than two dense housing neighbors becoming even more denser with 24 hour hotels and even more apartments. In theory, that would give this starter system a wider potential ridership demographic with hours that start early morning and run late at night. At least, that is how I came to compromise the budget versus the ridership, versus the additional economic development infill that occurs along the way in my own mind in helping come up with some of the initial proposed routing.

However, there are strong proponents in the transit industry who say you could put a single track streetcar "loop" anywhere and it's mere presence will stimulate ridership and economic development. There are others that say that a straight line with clear defined legibility is "real transit" for people trying to get destinations more efficiently. They argue that spreading the line out is a disservice to daily riders.

As I stated in earlier posts, everything is under renewed review right now. As Betts stated, there will be additional public meetings to gather even more input and put proposals forward for feedback beyond the initial route proposed by the AA process and MAPS 3 Transit Subcommittee.

It is interesting to observe the rise in level of interest in this project as more and more people realize that it will be actually coming into reality very, very shortly.

[OKCisOK4me]

Thank you Betts for helping me try to understand the concept but I still can't quite grasp it without seeing a video of the whole process. UP, what key terms should I use in looking up a video on Google or Youtube to help me better understand these differences? My genuine thanks in advance!

did you even read his response?



or read this thread

Yeah, I read it, but there's other people out there like me that can't quite grasp a concept unless they see a picture or video of it. Just reading it, isn't going to help me become a genius overnight. Thanks.

[Urban Pioneer]

Just going off what your saying, here are some trip scenarios off the top of my head that are not Deep Deuce based but system based as to where some justification for that route map came from under review.

1. Deep Deuce to new MAPS 3 Park
2. Bricktown/Hotels to new Convention Center
3. Santa-Fe Station future regional commuters to Central Business District Employment
4. Convention Center to OKC National Memorial
5. CBD workforce to Midtown Housing
6. Midtown Businesses to CBD services
7. Midtown Housing to Park/Bricktown/Hub

Other considerations would be City Arts Center, parking diversification, expansion to Plaza District.

Just off the top of my head anyways. There are probably many more trip scenarios discussed but undoubtedly, they are not entirely based on trips from the Deep Deuce to other parts of the system.

Politically, it was made clear that Bricktown had to be on the route by the Mayor, the idea for the Walnut street bridge direct connection was strongly encouraged by Councilman Ed Shadid and Council woman Meg Salyer. On the new OKC Boulevard by the MAPS 3 Park by the MAPS 3 Park Subcommittee. The connection to Midtown was encouraged by former Councilman Sam Bowman and at the time, reinforced by support by Councilman Pete White in an effort to "stretch" the line outside of the CBD and onward toward NW neighborhoods. And there has been strong consistent support by a diverse group of people on an Easterly N/S orientation to serve Auto Alley well over a Westerly N/S orientation such as Hudson or Walker.

Now, some of these people have perhaps have changed or tweaked their desires after the current route was conceptualized, but perhaps this helps explain how the current route under assessment came into being.

I do think that my involvement in that process and the majority of the subcommittee has been misinterpreted by some as a "directive" by the subcommittee on what should be done rather than recognizing we were exerting leadership in trying to mesh the desires of stakeholders/council/interested parties/economic development infill and trip generating ridership scenarios.

Hope that helps.

[Urban Pioneer]

With all that stated, some much more meaningful and scientific data free from politics has come out of the Planning Department the past two months which should help inform the economic development assessment in all this.

[OKCisOK4me]

Meesa appreciates your thoughts The history is there, under the BNSF bridge on NW 4th St. The old streetcar tracks are still in the concrete, lol. History repeats itself and even if it doesn't do it exactly, I'm with you, I just can't wait to see what the history of the future holds for OKC.

Maybe something like this?

[BoulderSooner]

good luck ever getting HH on board with the street car going through their neighborhood on the way to 23rd

[OKCisOK4me]

good luck ever getting HH on board with the street car going through their neighborhood on the way to 23rd

Yeah, go ahead and scratch that whole idea then, lol.

[BoulderSooner]

Yeah, go ahead and scratch that whole idea then, lol.

you say that but it is reality

[OKCisOK4me]

you say that but it is reality

I really wasn't being sarcastic. I've dealt with HH residents, working in their homes. It's a no go, I agree 100%

[BoulderSooner]

I really wasn't being sarcastic. I've dealt with HH residents, working in their homes. It's a no go, I agree 100%

my apologies then ...

[OKCisOK4me]

my apologies then ...

It's all good. Sometimes it's hard to read what I type since most of the time I'm boastfully sarcastic, lol.

[BoulderSooner]

It's all good. Sometimes it's hard to read what I type since most of the time I'm boastfully sarcastic, lol.

lol

[Buffalo Bill]

lol

FWIW, Robinson doesn't run through HH, it merely abuts it.

[BoulderSooner]

FWIW, Robinson doesn't run through HH, it merely abuts it.

the edge doesn't either and HH was all over it and the bar/restaurant/club that wanted to go in on broadway wasn't in HH either and they killed it

[Buffalo Bill]

bar/restaurant/club that wanted to go in on broadway wasn't in HH either and they killed it

Strip club.

[Lafferty Daniel]

n/m

[OKCisOK4me]

The most interesting aspect to me from last night's symposium is that Shadid stated that the reason OKC has not received federal funds matching what MAPS will raise for the streetcar route is because operational costs have not been allocated for the project. That said, where would this come from? Also, the bus system would cost $1.5 million to run on Sundays. Surely that was a yearly figure? That said, didn't the city have a rainy day fund of something like $60 million or was that a state fund?

Anyway, I have to ask you UP if the current proposed route (which was handed out on fliers last night) was one which was set up by just the Streetcar Committee or like Mr. Walker discussed where you have actively involved those along the route and if there was going to be a specific amount of their property tax going toward and in addition to the MAPS taxes collected for the project?