Rose State College

[Plutonic Panda]

Couldn't find a thread for this. Thought it deserved its own thread and I found these proposed renovations.

Rose State College officials in Midwest City propose $21.9 million bond issue | News OK

[bombermwc]

Since it's a state school, why is the state not helping contribute to these projects? I'm not sure why the Mid-Del/Choctaw area is the only one being asked to pay for this. It's not as though OU bonds-out to Norman do they?

[Plutonic Panda]

Since it's a state school, why is the state not helping contribute to these projects? I'm not sure why the Mid-Del/Choctaw area is the only one being asked to pay for this. It's not as though OU bonds-out to Norman do they?

I kind of wondered about that.

[ou48A]

Since it's a state school, why is the state not helping contribute to these projects? I'm not sure why the Mid-Del/Choctaw area is the only one being asked to pay for this. It's not as though OU bonds-out to Norman do they?

On only one occasion that I know of did the city of Norman let bonds for an OU project?
It was for the Sam Noble Natural history museum. If I remember correctly it was $15 million.
Norman has cooperated with moving streets and utilities for OU projects.

Since my wife is an adjunct professor at Rose State it would be very nice if their professors received a nice raise.
There are many who are under paid for the work they do.

[bombermwc]

Yeah right now, i'd vote no since it's scope of bond is so narrow. RSC isn't a school district. It shouldn't be limited to mid-del/choctaw.

[Bimmerdude]

Well, they obviosuly have money to renovate the buildings along I-40.....

[amanda_]

I'd vote no too. It seems like they should be taking care of this stuff anyway and not trying to tax us more. It is kinda typical for a government school...raise tuition, raise fees and tax everybody. I'll bet they will want more and raise tuition too! VOTE NO!

[amanda_]

Let's all agree to vote NO since government can't seem to spend money well. What is a government bureaucrat's solution for hard times: TAX MORE!

[bombermwc]

It's not that i disagree with the project. But i do feel like the scope of the bond should be larger.

[ewoodard70]

I used to work summers in the maintenance department of Rose State, I know the budget for repair work is not what it needs to be. The department would get the new budget on July 1 and would have to work from that. However I do agree with Bomber that the scope should be larger and include Jones and Harrah as well.

[Midtowner]

Since it's a state school, why is the state not helping contribute to these projects? I'm not sure why the Mid-Del/Choctaw area is the only one being asked to pay for this. It's not as though OU bonds-out to Norman do they?

For one thing, you have a number of legislators (a large number) who don't understand that revenue bonds are constitutional. For another thing, Mid-Del/Choctaw area folks are the only people attending Rose State. I'm willing to betcha Rose State doesn't attract a lot of students from all over the state like OU or OSU or even UCO. It's a community college serving a very local purpose. Apparently, Rose State also has tech-ed programs utilized by local HS students, so either improve existing facilities or lose students and dollars to UCO.

[Midtowner]

Let's all agree to vote NO since government can't seem to spend money well. What is a government bureaucrat's solution for hard times: TAX MORE!

Do you think current money spent on community colleges is being mishandled?

If so, explain yourself.

[bombermwc]

I can understand part of the use-tax idea there Midtowner, but i dont feel that education is something that gets to use use-tax. I went to a private university, yet i contributed and still to (in taxes) to public education which includes the universities. I'm not complaining about that, i think that's how it should be.

However, that's part of it being a state institution. If you want to work local donors for projects or take on debt for something like construction, that's your thing. But if you want to bond it out, then you need to have a STATE bond that has your projects in it. NOT focus it in one area and say, "you use it so you pay it". If they feel they need to recoup cost from the high schools using the pool, then charge them. You'll see them cut their swim teams (or the district will bond to build their own pool...but probably not from a liability standpoint) and then that cash will dissapear. But just because someone from Piedmont may or may not go to Rose, that doesn't mean that as a state institution, they should have the responsibility to help maintain the place. That's why it's a STATE school. It may be a community college, but it's still state. As far as I know, the EOC area doesn't pay a seperate tax to have the school there. If that's not the case, please educate me because that would alter my position significantly.

[Midtowner]

I can understand part of the use-tax idea there Midtowner, but i dont feel that education is something that gets to use use-tax. I went to a private university, yet i contributed and still to (in taxes) to public education which includes the universities. I'm not complaining about that, i think that's how it should be.

However, that's part of it being a state institution. If you want to work local donors for projects or take on debt for something like construction, that's your thing. But if you want to bond it out, then you need to have a STATE bond that has your projects in it. NOT focus it in one area and say, "you use it so you pay it". If they feel they need to recoup cost from the high schools using the pool, then charge them. You'll see them cut their swim teams (or the district will bond to build their own pool...but probably not from a liability standpoint) and then that cash will dissapear. But just because someone from Piedmont may or may not go to Rose, that doesn't mean that as a state institution, they should have the responsibility to help maintain the place. That's why it's a STATE school. It may be a community college, but it's still state. As far as I know, the EOC area doesn't pay a seperate tax to have the school there. If that's not the case, please educate me because that would alter my position significantly.

All schools are state institutions.

Local schools receiving bond money is routine. Why is this different?

[amanda_]

All schools are state institutions.

Local schools receiving bond money is routine. Why is this different?

Local K-12 schools. UCO doesn't tax and issues bonds taxing Edmond property owners--and Rose shouldn't tax us! When I was a student at Rose, there were LOTS of students from other than Mid-Del. My dad lives in Choctaw and they don't pay property tax to Rose. I live in MWC and I get taxed for a Choctaw student? It smells like you know what......

[Midtowner]

Comparing UCO to Rose State is just ridiculous. UCO has students who come from all over the state, some from out of the state and out of the country. It is of statewide importance. UCO is currently working on securing a revenue bond to begin construction on a $38MM Medical Examiner's office to be connected with the OSBI office and the UCO Forensics programs which are nationally recognized. Rose State, on the other hand offers a few Associates degrees, you can get a Bachelor's (through UCO) and is basically a glorified high school. Local high schools do make use of Rose and many of their Tech Ed programs. Rose has a huge impact on the Mid/Del economy and it would be economically beneficial for you to expand operations there and try to serve as many students as possible. These students eat in your restaurants, buy things at your local stores and buy gas at your gas stations.

This isn't just a bond on MWC. It's the Rose State Tech Ed district. You see, many high school students attend Rose during school hours to learn things like welding and autocad. These students come from the Tech Ed district, which includes Del City, parts of OKC and Choctaw. The tax would be applied to those areas as well, not just MWC. The amount of the tax is negligble. $1.67 per month per $100,000 home.

The basic assumptions you have made are wrong. Go read the article the OP posted. At least attempt to know what you're objecting to.

[amanda_]

I don't buy your arguments--and I DID READ the article. You come across as some paid government hack for RSC. How much are you getting from the bond? Schools, the government -- all of them need to live within their means. VOTE NO!

Comparing UCO to Rose State is just ridiculous. UCO has students who come from all over the state, some from out of the state and out of the country. It is of statewide importance. UCO is currently working on securing a revenue bond to begin construction on a $38MM Medical Examiner's office to be connected with the OSBI office and the UCO Forensics programs which are nationally recognized. Rose State, on the other hand offers a few Associates degrees, you can get a Bachelor's (through UCO) and is basically a glorified high school. Local high schools do make use of Rose and many of their Tech Ed programs. Rose has a huge impact on the Mid/Del economy and it would be economically beneficial for you to expand operations there and try to serve as many students as possible. These students eat in your restaurants, buy things at your local stores and buy gas at your gas stations.

This isn't just a bond on MWC. It's the Rose State Tech Ed district. You see, many high school students attend Rose during school hours to learn things like welding and autocad. These students come from the Tech Ed district, which includes Del City, parts of OKC and Choctaw. The tax would be applied to those areas as well, not just MWC. The amount of the tax is negligble. $1.67 per month per $100,000 home.

The basic assumptions you have made are wrong. Go read the article the OP posted. At least attempt to know what you're objecting to.

[Midtowner]

I don't buy your arguments--and I DID READ the article. You come across as some paid government hack for RSC. How much are you getting from the bond? Schools, the government -- all of them need to live within their means. VOTE NO!

Schools depend on bond issues to live within their means. Bonds are debt incurred for the purpose of making out of the ordinary purchases or capital improvements which are not part of an ordinary state budget. Leaky roofs don't happen every year, so the legislature doesn't need to make an appropriation to fix perfectly good roofs. When roofs do leak though (and Rose State has a serious problem at the swimming pool), the only way to fix things is by incurring debt.

Check this out:

OSCN Found Document:Indebtedness for capital improvements at state institutions

In 1968, the state voted to amend the Constitution to grant the Board of Regents for Higher Education the power to issue bonds in the amount of $38MM. That was real money back then and today doesn't scratch the surface.

Back then, we were also funding a much greater part of the cost of educating students at universities with taxpayer dollars than today. We now have a growing number of buildings which become more dilapidated and expensive to repair every single year and the legislature is cutting taxes instead of allowing these schools to pay their bills.

All of the information in my previous reply came from the same NewsOk article. It stated that the folks voting would be within the Tech Ed district and that the district serves the Mid/Del area, parts of OKC and Choctaw. The Tech Ed students who go to Rose State are high school students, not college students.

Without bonds, we couldn't have high school music programs--instruments can be extremely expensive--replacing every instrument in an high school band is a six-figure proposition. You probably wouldn't say we should shutter all high school music programs, would you? Or would you expect that a low income student who is going to play the bassoon for 4 years buy his own? (a "cheap" model is about $6,000). I'm fine either way. The state legislature could appropriate enough to school districts so they can afford to pay for band instruments every year and replace them as they go, or save before they open a new campus to be able to afford instruments and uniforms OR we could ask the communities which directly benefit from these expenditures to chip in what is probably an additional .5% or something more on their property tax bills.

As for whether I'm a "government hack" or not, what would that matter? What I'm telling you is true whether I'm Joe the Plumber or Mary Fallin's Chief of Staff. In reality, I'm an attorney--the private kind. I don't do education law or have a dog in the hunt with Rose State. I'm just talking to someone on the internet [you] who apparently has formed a very strong opinion about something she really doesn't understand.

Take a step back re-examine the facts without forming conclusions first. Bond issues are precisely how these entities live within their means. If we did it your way, football and band programs would be a thing of the past as well as school buildings, school buildings getting roofs replaced, capital improvements, welding classes, agricultural classes, new computers, and everything schools absolutely rely on bond money to buy. Do you think a new roof after your current roof collapses is excessive? A luxury? No? Okay then, answer for me how Rose State is not living within their means by asking for the folks they serve to chip in a little.

[amanda_]

I really don't like lawyers. You all clutter up stuff. Bottom line is schools take too much money and you know it too. It is just that you are part of the lawyer class that make their money off of this kind of crap. You're just like the college...a tick sucking blood.

Schools depend on bond issues to live within their means. Bonds are debt incurred for the purpose of making out of the ordinary purchases or capital improvements which are not part of an ordinary state budget. Leaky roofs don't happen every year, so the legislature doesn't need to make an appropriation to fix perfectly good roofs. When roofs do leak though (and Rose State has a serious problem at the swimming pool), the only way to fix things is by incurring debt.

Check this out:

OSCN Found Document:Indebtedness for capital improvements at state institutions

In 1968, the state voted to amend the Constitution to grant the Board of Regents for Higher Education the power to issue bonds in the amount of $38MM. That was real money back then and today doesn't scratch the surface.

Back then, we were also funding a much greater part of the cost of educating students at universities with taxpayer dollars than today. We now have a growing number of buildings which become more dilapidated and expensive to repair every single year and the legislature is cutting taxes instead of allowing these schools to pay their bills.

All of the information in my previous reply came from the same NewsOk article. It stated that the folks voting would be within the Tech Ed district and that the district serves the Mid/Del area, parts of OKC and Choctaw. The Tech Ed students who go to Rose State are high school students, not college students.

Without bonds, we couldn't have high school music programs--instruments can be extremely expensive--replacing every instrument in an high school band is a six-figure proposition. You probably wouldn't say we should shutter all high school music programs, would you? Or would you expect that a low income student who is going to play the bassoon for 4 years buy his own? (a "cheap" model is about $6,000). I'm fine either way. The state legislature could appropriate enough to school districts so they can afford to pay for band instruments every year and replace them as they go, or save before they open a new campus to be able to afford instruments and uniforms OR we could ask the communities which directly benefit from these expenditures to chip in what is probably an additional .5% or something more on their property tax bills.

As for whether I'm a "government hack" or not, what would that matter? What I'm telling you is true whether I'm Joe the Plumber or Mary Fallin's Chief of Staff. In reality, I'm an attorney--the private kind. I don't do education law or have a dog in the hunt with Rose State. I'm just talking to someone on the internet [you] who apparently has formed a very strong opinion about something she really doesn't understand.

Take a step back re-examine the facts without forming conclusions first. Bond issues are precisely how these entities live within their means. If we did it your way, football and band programs would be a thing of the past as well as school buildings, school buildings getting roofs replaced, capital improvements, welding classes, agricultural classes, new computers, and everything schools absolutely rely on bond money to buy. Do you think a new roof after your current roof collapses is excessive? A luxury? No? Okay then, answer for me how Rose State is not living within their means by asking for the folks they serve to chip in a little.

[Plutonic Panda]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, isn't Rose State a branch of UCO?

Edit: Or a better term for that would be an off campus site funded or owned by UCO.

[amanda_]

Colleges charge tuition...more tuition...fees...more fees...tax...more tax....tax property...tax this...tax that. Vote NO.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, isn't Rose State a branch of UCO?

Edit: Or a better term for that would be an off campus site funded or owned by UCO.

[Midtowner]

I really don't like lawyers. You all clutter up stuff. Bottom line is schools take too much money and you know it too. It is just that you are part of the lawyer class that make their money off of this kind of crap. You're just like the college...a tick sucking blood.

Are you for real?

How do we clutter stuff up. Be specific. Entertain me.

And you think a college education is a bad thing?

I don't stand to make money on this deal, who would make money would be whichever roofing companies and construction companies who win the bidding process. Maybe some attorneys to handle the transactional details to ensure everyone gets paid and construction moves as planned and all the insurance, etc. is right. Also, folks who buy public bonds as investments would make a little bit of tax-free interest income off of the bonds. I can assure you, no lawyer is getting rich off of this deal.

I'm just not sure you get it... if you have a house and the roof leaks and insurance won't cover it, what do you do? Chastise yourself for not living within your means? Or take out a loan which you can easily afford?

[Midtowner]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, isn't Rose State a branch of UCO?

Edit: Or a better term for that would be an off campus site funded or owned by UCO.

Nope. Rose State is a community college. UCO is organized under the regional university system of Oklahoma. The main difference is that on Rose States' campus, you'll find a lot of Associates degree programs (I don't think UCO offers those at all). Associates degrees tend to focus more on the subject area, where a bachelor's is going to include things like a requirement that you take liberal arts classes, classes on philosophy, humanities, world languages, etc.

UCO does have an extension at Rose State where students can take classes on Rose State's campus but receive credit towards a bachelor's degree. That's one of the values of a place like Rose State--they're reaching out to students who ordinarily couldn't obtain higher education due to work requirements, having a family, etc., and doing it at a fraction of the cost of a for-profit school (compare $79 per credit at Rose to sometimes in the neighborhood of $1,000 per credit at some for-profit schools) and at the same time providing a better quality education as well as a more recognizable degree to get students further in the workplace.

Rose has a lot of programs you won't find at UCO and vice versa. If you want to get a quick 2-year paralegal certificate, you can go from flipping burgers to a $25/hour job with benefits and do it without incurring massive student debt.

Education is one of the government's core functions and a no vote here is going to result in the decay of Rose's campus and just result in the taxpayers being hit up for even more money after more decay occurs.

[Plutonic Panda]

Colleges charge tuition...more tuition...fees...more fees...tax...more tax....tax property...tax this...tax that. Vote NO.

Well, I couldn't vote if I wanted to, as I live in Edmond.

[Plutonic Panda]

Nope. Rose State is a community college. UCO is organized under the regional university system of Oklahoma. The main difference is that on Rose States' campus, you'll find a lot of Associates degree programs (I don't think UCO offers those at all). Associates degrees tend to focus more on the subject area, where a bachelor's is going to include things like a requirement that you take liberal arts classes, classes on philosophy, humanities, world languages, etc.

UCO does have an extension at Rose State where students can take classes on Rose State's campus but receive credit towards a bachelor's degree. That's one of the values of a place like Rose State--they're reaching out to students who ordinarily couldn't obtain higher education due to work requirements, having a family, etc., and doing it at a fraction of the cost of a for-profit school (compare $79 per credit at Rose to sometimes in the neighborhood of $1,000 per credit at some for-profit schools) and at the same time providing a better quality education as well as a more recognizable degree to get students further in the workplace.

Rose has a lot of programs you won't find at UCO and vice versa. If you want to get a quick 2-year paralegal certificate, you can go from flipping burgers to a $25/hour job with benefits and do it without incurring massive student debt.

Education is one of the government's core functions and a no vote here is going to result in the decay of Rose's campus and just result in the taxpayers being hit up for even more money after more decay occurs.

Aha, I see. So Francis Tuttle would be kind of like that, but more for specialty type classes and engineering, I'm guessing. Well, it makes sense anyways. About Rose State.