Odot

[CaptDave]

Kerry's ideal world is one were everyone walks or rides a bicycle everywhere.

I think that is a mischaracterization (is that a word?) - I think JTF thinks people should have that choice available to them. I agree with that. I would like to be able to walk or ride a bicycle safely to work or to other places but you really can't do that in most of OKC. It is undeniable that OKC is massively biased toward the automobile and it is often impossible, and usually very difficult, to get anywhere without a car. The city has acknowledged it made a huge mistake in not building sidewalks for over 20 years and now we are paying the price. Fortunately, steps are being taken to rectify that mistake but it is going to take some time.

[ljbab728]

I may have been overstating what Kerry wants slightly but not by much. I don't really think he only wants choices. He wants some options removed entirely. (IE not having an I40 at all through downtown)

[ou48A]

Choices that don’t serve very many people such as a down town Norman commuter rail station cost a lot of money.
These are limited resources that could most likely be utilized far more effectively elsewhere.

[LakeEffect]

The Revolving Door: Oklahoma?s Gary Ridley ? Asphalt Lobbyist, DOT Chief | Streetsblog Capitol Hill

[CaptDave]

Will OK ever learn? Could there be any more obvious conflict of interest? Incompetence at least for failure to actually have a plan that objectively analyzes ALL modes of transportation. Is it not obvious why we should rename that agency ODOR?

[LakeEffect]

I'm not impressed by the article. Her previous article about Ohio DOT felt more informed. Probably because she lives in Ohio. Quoting the people she did really doesn't help her, in my opinion. Plus, she missed all of the pro-rail things Ridley has actually done. I think Ridley is pretty tame compared to Ohio's guy. It's hard to call it a conflict of interest when his work history, even as exec. director of that assoc., means he knows something about transportation. The bigger picture is what's ahead now that we know he's retiring.

[CaptDave]

I am not so sure cafe - the has been a lot of stalli.... I mean studying about rail but not much real progress. We are extremely highway centric and the agency does not appear to be very objective in looking at anything else.

We have an opportunity most places never get in that we could start building new and better transportation infrastructure before it becomes something that negatively affects quality of life in the state. OKC and other population centers in OK are going to continue increasing in population and we need to decide now if we want to continue laying more and more concrete that will never be enough to satisfy the induced demand; or start working on real plans that provide better alternatives. We systematically ignore life cycle and long term costs for exclusively building more highway infrastructure. They do a pretty good job when it comes to building new highway interchanges and the like, but are like most of us when outside their comfort zone and the results are mixed at best.

I understand and agree it isn't a "need" right now, but failing to get ahead of the eventual need when we have an opportunity to do so is a failure in leadership in my opinion. But you are likely closer to the folks over there than I. I can only speak about what I have heard them say in a few meetings and what their actions and policies appear to be.

(I agree the article isn't breaking new ground, but I don't think many people realize we nearly have had a revolving door between the Asphalt Association and ODOT. The appearance should make people question for whose benefit is the agency truly working for.)

[Just the facts]

I may have been overstating what Kerry wants slightly but not by much. I don't really think he only wants choices. He wants some options removed entirely. (IE not having an I40 at all through downtown)

You are about I-40. I would not have rebuilt it. I would removed the entire section between 235 and 44 and re-established the grid. I would have then made a new I-40 connecting to Airport Road and some point near Yukon on the current I-40. This new bypass route wouldn't have any exits. This would result in local access to downtown but all thru- traffic would be routed around the city.

[Larry OKC]

JTF: So you dont want "thru traffic" to be able to stop and spend their time & money in OKC?

[Dubya61]

JTF: So you dont want "thru traffic" to be able to stop and spend their time & money in OKC?

I'm sure through traffic would stop and get their gas and fast food on I-240 or I-44 just as much as they would have on the crosstown freeway. No loss of money spent in OKC.

[Larry OKC]

I'm sure through traffic would stop and get their gas and fast food on I-240 or I-44 just as much as they would have on the crosstown freeway. No loss of money spent in OKC.

But then we couldn't have built the iconic Skydancer bridge (according to the Mayor, the express intent of the design was to get those "thru traffic" drivers to stop, visit and spend money).

[Dubya61]

To be clear, the Crosstown Freeway is not required for people driving between Barstow, California, and Wilmington, North Carolina. Through traffic can re-route to I-240 (which, of course, would simply be I-40 in the absence of the Crosstown Freeway). Let's say the new I-40 was never built. If the Mayor was adamant about some version of the Skydancer Bridge to attract the I-40 travellers, he could have constructed it somehow over I-240. It would be just as effective as luring hapless souls off the interstate there as it is downtown.

[Just the facts]

Where exactly between 44 and 35 are those people stopping now? How long do you think it will take to payoff Skydance bridge using tax collections from people who were inspired to stop because of it?

[Larry OKC]

Hmmm for some reason the character formatting options are absent...

JTF: Good question to ask the Mayor...LOL I am sure there were a decent share of folks that pulled off for Stockyards City/Cattlemans (even though at least part of that isn't actually in OKC) and the Bass Pro/Toby Keiths/Bricktown area that with the relocation and Council ban on billboards (except those that were grandfathered in), that wouldn't even be aware of those places if the crosstown wasn't there. And I am all for returning to the grid where it makes sense (like with the Boulevard). But to me it doesn't make sense when you are talking about an interstate.

Dubya61: granted their options for access are less now with the relocation than before thanks to ODoT. Of course it isn't required for those folks, but it is the most direct path...why send folks several miles out of the way...kind of the point of interstate systems is to get folks from point A to point B in the least amount of time/distance. With many large metropolitan areas, taking a loop around the city may actually be faster than taking the most direct path. We just don't have the traffic congestion to justify it.

[Just the facts]

Well it doesn't even matter Larry because they already spent the $600 million. They aren't going to tear out the freeway now.

[rcjunkie]

I'm sure through traffic would stop and get their gas and fast food on I-240 or I-44 just as much as they would have on the crosstown freeway. No loss of money spent in OKC.

The money required to update I-240 and I-44 so they could handle the extra traffic would probably exceed the cost of the new I-40

[Plutonic Panda]

The money required to update I-240 and I-44 so they could handle the extra traffic would probably exceed the cost of the new I-40

Well, it's getting close for them to have do that anyways.

[venture]

The plan that I have heard talked about would roughly follow I -35. But it would not be light rail, It would be commuter rail.
The plan is to double track the line. The plan calls for Norman to have 2 stops. One at OU and another on the north edge of town near Tecumseh Street.

I am not sure but there are so many people who live in far east Norman and south of Norman that a stop near Highway 9 might be worth consideration.

There are a lot more in the area along Highway 9 than along Tecumseh in North Norman.

Most people who commute to OKC from Norman live on Norman’s north or west sides. For thousands of these people it would take a minimum of 20 minutes to drive to downtown Norman. The downtown Norman parking is very poor for daily commute. By the time most people driveto downtown, wait on the train and actually arrive at their end train destination they could have driven in about ½ the time.

That's a pretty shallow viewpoint and likely not true. If you get North of Robinson and West of I-35...the population numbers really start to fall off. Your core is much further south and east of those areas.

However let's be honest. Let's say the terminating point is downtown. For people living in North Norman or West Norman along I-35, then the train is almost pointless. The commute time will jump significantly (almost double) in most cases. The only people it will attract are those that don't want to drive and/or pay for parking downtown. As far as station placement in Norman, I would probably look at...

- Along Classen just north of where it turns off of 12th SE, North of Constitution on the present day site of the OU Motel, Classen Self Storage, etc. That would be ideally suited to serve campus and much of the core of SE Norman.

- Norman Amtrak Downtown - Maybe...this one might be more of an optional stop.

- Westheimer Airport along Flood probably around or just north of Rock Creek since the area near Robinson is a bit too packed right there. Plus it is still somewhat central to those North and South of that area.

However, observing how classic commuter rail works in places like Chicago...I'm not sure it is going to really make a dent. Much like what Kerry is pointing out. If you have too many stops along the way, that is going to make it take longer. Will people really give up the ability to go from downtown to home in south Norman in 30-45 minutes depending on traffic (sometimes faster/slower) just to take a train that will probably take more than hour to make the trip (especially if you add in Moore and South OKC stops).

If I look at commuter rail options from the Western Chicago burbs, it works great there because the highway system is poorly laid out and is packed with traffic. OKC's highways aren't anywhere near as bad.

[catch22]

Our highways are not packed yet, but they will be one day. Rush hour used to only be an hour AM and PM. But very quickly it is growing past those times. Long term we will need rail.

[Plutonic Panda]

I've noticed the increasing amount of cars during rush hour. It is starting to get bad. But, we are nowhere near what Atlanta, Houston, or Dallas is though.

[ou48A]

There are a lot more in the area along Highway 9 than along Tecumseh in North Norman.



That's a pretty shallow viewpoint and likely not true. If you get North of Robinson and West of I-35...the population numbers really start to fall off. Your core is much further south and east of those areas.

However let's be honest. Let's say the terminating point is downtown. For people living in North Norman or West Norman along I-35, then the train is almost pointless. The commute time will jump significantly (almost double) in most cases. The only people it will attract are those that don't want to drive and/or pay for parking downtown. As far as station placement in Norman, I would probably look at...

- Along Classen just north of where it turns off of 12th SE, North of Constitution on the present day site of the OU Motel, Classen Self Storage, etc. That would be ideally suited to serve campus and much of the core of SE Norman.

- Norman Amtrak Downtown - Maybe...this one might be more of an optional stop.

- Westheimer Airport along Flood probably around or just north of Rock Creek since the area near Robinson is a bit too packed right there. Plus it is still somewhat central to those North and South of that area.

However, observing how classic commuter rail works in places like Chicago...I'm not sure it is going to really make a dent. Much like what Kerry is pointing out. If you have too many stops along the way, that is going to make it take longer. Will people really give up the ability to go from downtown to home in south Norman in 30-45 minutes depending on traffic (sometimes faster/slower) just to take a train that will probably take more than hour to make the trip (especially if you add in Moore and South OKC stops).

If I look at commuter rail options from the Western Chicago burbs, it works great there because the highway system is poorly laid out and is packed with traffic. OKC's highways aren't anywhere near as bad.

If is a shallow and a wrong view point then you had better take your opinions to the experts who are planning this because as far I have been able to determine their view points are pretty much identical to mine with the exception of a highway 9 park and ride train station.

These experts have studied the issue at great depth and have the substance backing their side.
My common sense not only tells me that their conclusions for Norman are correct, but also that I should also trust their findings.




PS: The current plan also calls for an OU station somewhere near the OU duck pond at or near an intermodal facility that will be built

[ou48A]

I've noticed the increasing amount of cars during rush hour. It is starting to get bad. But, we are nowhere near what Atlanta, Houston, or Dallas is though.

And by staying ahead of the curve on this it won’t be as bad…..and if we act it will help keep our quality of life higher!
It’s why we need to act sooner rather than later.

[venture]

If is a shallow and a wrong view point then you had better take your opinions to the experts who are planning this because as far I have been able to determine their view points are pretty much identical to mine with the exception of a highway 9 park and ride train station.

These experts have studied the issue at great depth and have the substance backing their side.
My common sense not only tells me that their conclusions for Norman are correct, but also that I should also trust their findings.

PS: The current plan also calls for an OU station somewhere near the OU duck pond at or near an intermodal facility that will be built

Well the OU station is almost exactly where I mentioned, except mine is about half block further south.

If they honestly think having a commuter train stopping every 2 miles is going to encourage people to ride, they are fools and we are wasting money. Now if they commit to an express rail line that will have one stop in Norman, one in Moore/South OKC, and then Downtown...then we are talking. Otherwise it'll be faster to drive.

Now 20-30 years down the road it'll probably be different, however right now you aren't going to get people to give up their cars to take a train north. Especially not with out an extensive light rail network to connect to. If I want to get to the airport, a Norman-Downtown line is worthless to me without a connection to the airport. It is even more worthless if their answer is to use buses as the connection mode. At that point I'm better off take the Norman Spur to 44 and up - it would be fast than the mentioned routing example (I don't drive this way currently since it is about 10 minutes longer than the usual 35/240/59th).

And by staying ahead of the curve on this it won’t be as bad…..and if we act it will help keep our quality of life higher!
It’s why we need to act sooner rather than later.

As long as you, as a tax payer, are willing to subsidize this for a considerable number of years until ridership catches up with the cost demands.

[ou48A]

Well the OU station is almost exactly where I mentioned, except mine is about half block further south.

If they honestly think having a commuter train stopping every 2 miles is going to encourage people to ride, they are fools and we are wasting money. Now if they commit to an express rail line that will have one stop in Norman, one in Moore/South OKC, and then Downtown...then we are talking. Otherwise it'll be faster to drive.

Now 20-30 years down the road it'll probably be different, however right now you aren't going to get people to give up their cars to take a train north. Especially not with out an extensive light rail network to connect to. If I want to get to the airport, a Norman-Downtown line is worthless to me without a connection to the airport. It is even more worthless if their answer is to use buses as the connection mode. At that point I'm better off take the Norman Spur to 44 and up - it would be fast than the mentioned routing example (I don't drive this way currently since it is about 10 minutes longer than the usual 35/240/59th).



As long as you, as a tax payer, are willing to subsidize this for a considerable number of years until ridership catches up with the cost demands.

If you (anyone) want’s a successful commuter rail system that has ongoing support it is absolutely critical that a stop be made as close to OU as possible…. even if it means tearing out old apartments and or old rent houses.

There are people who attend OU events who have a great amount of influence in our state. If they like what they see, then the commuter rail system will get the funding they need for ongoing and expanded operations. When this comes up for a vote there will be more support for commuter rail if in part it’s sold as transportation to OU events. There is no getting around this^ and it would be very stupid for supporters to ignore.



Since Rock Creak Street is blocked by the airport and since Tecumseh is now a major east west street. It makes it the best location for a park and ride stop. This will become increasingly true as more housing is built on the north and west sides of Norman.

A downtown Norman train station is simply unrealistic and is a waste of time to even think about.

As far as I am concerned commuter rail will always need subsidized.. The question is how much and from whom? I wouldn’t mind either a sales tax increase or a small gasoline tax increase or a combination of both.


As I understand the plan…. A person from Norman wanting to go to the OKC airport would need to take the train to downtown OKC then take an express bus that will depart for the airport every 10 minutes.

[Plutonic Panda]

And by staying ahead of the curve on this it won’t be as bad…..and if we act it will help keep our quality of life higher!
It’s why we need to act sooner rather than later.

I agree. I also think we need to be responsible with spending though.