What happened to NW OKC?

[NoOkie]

That's great and you should be able to live that way, but you should also have a neighborhood urban cluster you can walk to that supports all your daily living essentials. Having a yard shouldn't also require you to own a car.

This is kind of ideal, for me. One of the things I really liked about the part of Portland I visited(east-ish, I think) is that there were little "small town mainstreets" dotted along the main road that fed the area. Every few miles, you'd have some street side parking, a cafe or a sandwich shop, a few small retail places and frequently a grocery store.

Honestly, if we had some sidewalks, where I live would be pretty close to that. At the corner of May and Hefner, there's that shopping center with a few restaurants and some retail. Admittedly, the retail is kind of lame, but at least it's there. 122nd and May you have that Homeland and some more retail. The Homeland is one of the really bad ones, but at least it's there. If there was a convenient way to get there, I might shop at it a bit more. As is, I do wander over to the Hefner shopping center for bagels or the occasional game of laser tag with the kids.

[Just the facts]

Okay I thought you were completely against living the way period. I understand what your talking about now.

Imagine a Plaza District every mile or so. Give me some time to post a couple of related Ted Talk videos and you will get a better idea of what I envision.

Kent Larson: Brilliant designs to fit more people in every city




Here is one on tentpole density. Feel free to ignore the climate chnage stuff (I do).
Alex Steffen: The shareable future of cities

[mkjeeves]

If a person sees no problem with sprawl, what difference does it make to them if new housing is built at the existing core or at the suburban fringe?

Who are you referring to, urban planners, developers, business owners, people who might build one place or the other?

The question I was raising was new construction (with or without commuting) vs reuse existing without commuting by placing jobs at existing neighborhoods.

Certainly new construction and get rid of commuting is better than new construction and even more commuting. New construction with the plan to abandon what has been built and could have been used with a different plan is wrong by many measures.

[Just the facts]

Certainly new construction and get rid of commuting is better than new construction and even more commuting. New construction with the plan to abandon what has been built and could have been used with a different plan is wrong by many measures.

Back when I thought differently we were planning to build a house in the Great Sky subdivision in Canton, GA and I was going to drive 40 miles to work in Atlanta and 40 miles home. Talking with several people in the office I found that a good 40 people or so in our office (about 500 employees) lived in that general area. I asked what the likelyhood would be that the company could lease an office in the area so we wouldn't have to commute so far. It seemed like a good idea to me but apparently they already tried that and it didn't work. It seems that since people were already williing to drive 40 miles to the office they started moving even further away to place like Eljay to escape the sprawl of metro Atlanta and many employees ended up with 20 mile drives anyhow. Chasing the employee didn't work because the employee kept moving. I now know that chasing the employee (and customer) is what drove retail and companies out of downtown in the first place.

[mkjeeves]

Back when I thought differently we were planning to build a house in the Great Sky subdivision in Canton, GA and I was going to drive 40 miles to work in Atlanta and 40 miles home. Talking with several people in the office I found that a good 40 people or so in our office (about 500 employees) lived in that general area. I asked what the likelyhood would be that the company could lease an office in the area so we wouldn't have to commute so far. It seemed like a good idea to me but apparently they already tried that and it didn't work. It seems that since people were already williing to drive 40 miles to the office they started moving even further away to place like Eljay to escape the sprawl of metro Atlanta and many employees ended up with 20 mile drives anyhow. Chasing the employee didn't work because the employee kept moving. I now know that chasing the employee (and customer) is what drove retail and companies out of downtown in the first place.

Yep. But you just completely undermined your unaffordable oil change argument. Which way do you want to go from here? How is it going to be before the end life of the decisions we have made and are making now?

[Just the facts]

Yep - like I said, that was back when I thought differently.

[soonerfan_in_okc]

I have been in norman for the past 4+ years going to school, but I grew up in NW OKC around the NW expressway-rockwell-hefner area. I don't go back often since my family has moved away, but when I do, it doesn't seem like much has changed. However, I do hear from alot of kids currently at Hefner and PC North that the schools are getting bad. Granted, I remember fights and drug searches, but they make it sound much worse.

All of this has crossed my mind before though, and having grown up in one of the many 1970 era neighborhoods, I worry about what the area will come to be in 20 years. If homeowners stay and don't rent out their properties, I believe the area can stay nice. But I know it is alot more complicated then that. Apartment complexes are also an issue. I hate saying that, because i know that the majority of residents cause no harm. My neighborhood (Rock Knoll) though was a perfect example of how apartments (Britton Courtyard) can ruin a nearby neighborhood. My family had enough when there was a shooting at the end of our street.

One thing I do love about the area though is the massive amount of diversity. The fact that section 8 housing and 500k homes all are within the same school district was interesting, and it definitely helped expose me to things that have positively shaped who I am.

[soonerfan_in_okc]

About PC schools though, I get the sense that they continue to have top notch teachers, which was my experience. It is simply the trouble brought in by kids who misbehave that is causing the issues.

[Teo9969]

I tried to read through the whole thread, but there was a lot, so I'm going to throw some thoughts out there...sorry if they've already been represented.

Even if we're only talking about the area NW of the Urban Core (N of I-40 and W I-44/I-235) that is such a broad stroke as to be meaningless. There are many really really nice areas on the NW side of the city and many really really bad areas.

If I had to categorize the most run down it would be in the box east of County Line/west of Portland/north of Reno/south of 23rd. And yes, it's getting pretty bad. There are other pockets like Wilshire/Rockwell, Penn/Hefner-122nd, Western/Britton.

The surrounded burbs like Bethany and Warr Acres are actually not that bad. Nothing great, but they maintain themselves well enough to stay consistent. It may be beneficial, as someone else alluded to/proposed earlier, to sell off some of the land to those burbs and let them take on the revitalization of those areas.

The area that OKC needs to really fight to maintain is the Putnam City North area. There are quite a few nice neighborhoods in the area (Warwick, Lansbrook, Blue Stem, Ski Island) that can provide plenty of opportunity to keep the area alive and well. But being a graduate of PCN, I've heard nothing but that it has gone downhill, and that concerns me for the viability of the NW side of the city south of Memorial. It's really not that far from the Urban Core, and long term, it seems the most likely place for good sustainable growth to occur as OKC gets bigger.

[1972ford]

Leave these places alone at least we know where the criminals are. Just tear down the burnt down apartments and make that area titty bat row or whatever

[RadicalModerate]

Leave these places alone at least we know where the criminals are. Just tear down the burnt down apartments and make that area titty bat row or whatever

"titty BAT row?" . . . (would tearing down the burnt down apartments destory their habitat? are there any natural caves in the vicinity? are these animals still able to fly?)

(i nominate that for Best Typo of the Year . . . if, of course, it was a typo . . .)

[RadicalModerate]

Back when I thought differently we were planning to build a house in the Great Sky subdivision in Canton, GA and I was going to drive 40 miles to work in Atlanta and 40 miles home . . .

From the Classic Film "True Stories" by David Byrne (back around 1983) . . .

[bchris02]

I am all for density and walkable neighborhoods, but I would never want to sacrifice the freedom of having a car to be at the mercy of public transportation to get around. I'm sure I am not the only person who feels that way.

[NoOkie]

I am all for density and walkable neighborhoods, but I would never want to sacrifice the freedom of having a car to be at the mercy of public transportation to get around. I'm sure I am not the only person who feels that way.

I've spent some time "at the mercy of public transportation". If a system is well designed, it's not a problem at all. And you can always keep a car in the garage for long trips/big grocery runs/etc. It just makes you not depend on it as much.

If we had reliable and well designed public transit, I wouldn't be getting ready to buy a 2nd car.

[mkjeeves]

My son moved to Chicago a few years ago. They used to live downtown but moved to Wrigleyville last year. They walk, bike, bus, train or cab almost everywhere, in that order of use pretty much, as do we when we visit. But they kept one car when they moved there and use it for some trips still, like a trip to Ikea in the burbs, or a weekend out of town to a nearby burg. (They rent and have a spot to park but they have shopped for downtown condos. Parking spots are frequently priced separately and cost about $25K to $30K additional for a spot in the building's garage.)

They both grew up here but now when they get back to OKC they complain about all the time they have to spend behind the wheel to get around town.

[RadicalModerate]

My son moved to Chicago a few years ago. They used to live downtown but moved to Wrigleyville last year. They walk, bike, bus, train or cab almost everywhere, in that order of use pretty much, as do we when we visit. But they kept one car when they moved there and use it for some trips still, like a trip to Ikea in the burbs, or a weekend out of town to a nearby burg. (They rent and have a spot to park but they have shopped for downtown condos. Parking spots are frequently priced separately and cost about $25K to $30K additional for a spot in the building's garage.)

They both grew up here but now when they get back to OKC they complain about all the time they have to spend behind the wheel to get around town.

"Wrigleyville"? THEY didn't build an IKEA within walkable/sidewalk enhanced distance of Wrigleyville??

"Jeeves! Text the Rickshaw attendant immediately! I wish to make a trip to IKEA . . . You know, the one on the fourteeth floor of that tower where The Red Dog used to be . . . chop chop . . ."

[mkjeeves]

Hard to believe isn't it?

This is really getting off topic but you know there was a bunch of talk the other day about how people won't change levels to shop retail. They have all kinds of businesses on upper and lower floors in Chicago. I believe there is a downtown Home Depot spanning several floors of a high rise and I don't think ground level is one of them. The local Whole Foods has a shopping cart escalator in it too.

/drift.

[Spartan]

Disagree. The idea we should continue to pour money into downtown and let the rest of the city rot is appalling. Especially considering the vast majority of city revenue comes from the areas we're talking about, NW OKC. There's property taxes generated downtown but there's little to no sales tax. The residents (who don't live downtown and have no intention of ever living downtown) have agreed through maps to work on downtown to a point and for a reason. I don't think most of the citizens would agree to make that the long term policy nor support leaders who act in that manner.

NW 10th should be on the slate for rehab all the way to Council. The city started on it and worked outward to Penn. They need to continue. If not, I'd suggest maybe they deannex everything west of Western and north of 23rd and we'll use our tax dollars to rework it ourselves.

If you think you don't need downtown, you should probably leave the city limits. Edmond or Piedmont don't need downtown. Of course, downtown Edmond might make you angry, but it's still not too significant.

[RadicalModerate]

Hard to believe isn't it?

This is really getting off topic but you know there was a bunch of talk the other day about how people won't change levels to shop retail. They have all kinds of businesses on upper and lower floors in Chicago. I believe there is a downtown Home Depot spanning several floors of a high rise and I don't think ground level is one of them. The local Whole Foods has a shopping cart escalator in it too.

/drift.

So . . . I hope they designed-in chutes or whatever to handle forty story drops of 24'+ 2x12s in a safe manner. Not to mention other stuff, such as pallets of concrete mix . . . Are deliveries made by hoisting semi-trailers suspended from zepplins? Or do the Keebler elves take care of the details?

Never mind: All things are possible in Wrigglyville . . . =)

[soonerfan_in_okc]

If you think you don't need downtown, you should probably leave the city limits. Edmond or Piedmont don't need downtown. Of course, downtown Edmond might make you angry, but it's still not too significant.

How the hell do you get that from his post?? He simply was saying that supporting downtown and ignoring NW OKC isn't a good idea.

[Tritone]

Two things: First, I was a child of the 50s and 60s near NW 10th and Mac Arthur (both two lane streets back then). When I drive through there now I just want to cry. Second, as a Cubs fans I do hope anything is possible in Wrigleyville. Maybe this year...

[mkjeeves]

How the hell do you get that from his post?? He simply was saying that supporting downtown and ignoring NW OKC isn't a good idea.

Both reading comprehension fail and ignoring the posts where I said specifically I get the need for a strong downtown. I also voted to subsidize it with my tax dollars. That's right,we voted to subsidize the downtown improvements with tax dollars generated elsewhere, not that downtown paid it's own way and sure isn't paying for the burdensome burbs like some would have us believe.

[RadicalModerate]

At the risk of repeating myself (on account of I'm old) . . . What if this thread had been titled something along the lines of: "What are the Wonderful Opportunities for The Northwest Quadrant of Oklahoma City?" rather than (paraphrased) "What [didn't happen] to NW OKC?" It may sound hackneyed and corny, but doesn't the way you approach a situation actually make a difference? (nah . . . scratch that . . . chalk it up to 'crazy talk' . . . =)

[mkjeeves]

So . . . I hope they designed-in chutes or whatever to handle forty story drops of 24'+ 2x12s in a safe manner. Not to mention other stuff, such as pallets of concrete mix . . . Are deliveries made by hoisting semi-trailers suspended from zepplins? Or do the Keebler elves take care of the details?

Never mind: All things are possible in Wrigglyville . . . =)

I'm pretty sure if you can't walk out with it under your arm it gets delivered. No way are vehicles going to pull up one after another on a busy downtown street during regular hours and load up. I didn't go inside and check it out but I did ask my son about it.

[zookeeper]

Two things: First, I was a child of the 50s and 60s near NW 10th and Mac Arthur (both two lane streets back then). When I drive through there now I just want to cry. Second, as a Cubs fans I do hope anything is possible in Wrigleyville. Maybe this year...

I know just how you feel. For me it was another neighborhood but the same results.