Bricktown Parking

[metro]

I know the topic has been heavily discussed on this site numerous times, however there really was never an appropriate thread created on the topic. Here is an article from today's Oklahoman.

Concerns voiced on Bricktown parking

By Steve Lackmeyer
A few months ago I was invited to speak to the Kiwanis Club of Nicoma Park about development in downtown Oklahoma City. About 20 people meet every Tuesday at the Dixie Diner, and the gathering is one of the best representations I've seen of the old-fashioned, small town America we all hope still exists.
As I finished providing updates on the various downtown projects, the question popped up: Why is parking such a problem in Bricktown?

Of course, not everybody agrees on whether there is a problem, or if it does, what it might be. But everybody seems to have an opinion on the topic, even in rural east Oklahoma County.

Bricktown had a good share of defenders at the Dixie Diner.

Some argued that parking in Bricktown is still a bargain, compared to downtown Dallas, Denver, San Antonio and St. Louis. Others pointed out parking is rarely so bad that you cannot find a free spot within a two-block walk of the entertainment district.

So it's no shock that readers were eager to share their thoughts about the closing of Boone's General Store, a Bricktown gift shop, and owner Lee Boone's criticism of Bricktown's parking arrangements.

Veteran Bricktown developer Jim Brewer, who owns a majority of the surface parking lots between Reno Avenue and Main Street, called to say he thinks Boone can only blame herself for her store's recent demise.

"I've been telling people for years, this isn't the place for mom and pop shops," Brewer said.

Maybe.

Boone certainly miscalculated when she assumed Brewer and others might let her customers park in their lots for free.

Reader Jane Taylor agrees Boone might have made some mistakes -- but the city and Bricktown businesses should have done more to help her survive.

"The city, as well as Boone's adjoining neighbors, didn't make it easy for her to succeed (shame on them)," Taylor wrote in her e-mailed comment. "Personally, I'd like to see more of the smaller, interesting, diverse and unique type of businesses establish roots in Bricktown and other areas of Oklahoma City. These are the types of places I seek out when I visit a different city -- businesses with a taste of local flavor."

Several readers argued Bricktown could be a successful retail destination if it followed the example set by Country Club Plaza in Kansas City -- an urban shopping center developed by G.A. Nichols (who also created Nichols Hills).

G.N. Furseth said he stays away from Bricktown because he doesn't want to pay for parking but admires the plaza in Kansas City for maintaining free parking.

Downtown attorney Elaine Schuster wonders why the city can support out-of-state retailers such as Bass Pro Shops but not locals like Boone.

She also dismisses suggestions by city leaders that $2 nighttime parking at the Santa Fe Garage, operated by the Central Oklahoma Transportation and Parking Authority (COTPA), adequately addresses the need in nearby Bricktown for affordable parking.

"The residential construction on the fringes of Bricktown makes the area more like the County Club Plaza in Kansas City," Schuster said via e-mail. "If the powers-in-being are trying to protect the COTPA garages, they are missing the boat. Those are not near enough to be a part of Bricktown."

Schuster adds Reno Avenue is a busy corridor that acts as a barrier to visitors in Lower Bricktown who might want to patronize businesses like Boone's in the original Bricktown district.

"Reno is comparable to the barrier the North Canadian River formed for decades between Capitol Hill and Oklahoma City -- a barrier for the residents, their thoughts and a deterrent to the movement in both directions for the residents," Schuster said.

"We must utilize our history and the experiences of other places such as the Country Club Plaza in Kansas City."

[BDP]

"I've been telling people for years, this isn't the place for mom and pop shops," Brewer said.

At least we have it in black and white now. It's been clear that the developers are not interested in working with local independents to make bricktown unique and interesting. Brewer just made it official.

He should say it's not for lazy people with the mindset that just being in bricktown means success, instead of dismissing all of our local business owners at once.

Downtown attorney Elaine Schuster wonders why the city can support out-of-state retailers such as Bass Pro Shops but not locals like Boone.

So true. Maybe if mom and pops could get city financing, it would be just as much of a place for them.

Those are not near enough to be a part of Bricktown

Maybe, but how much closer can you get? If you put parking in bricktown, you no longer have bricktown... you have a parking lot that looks and feels no different that anywhere else in the city. How does that make BT an attraction?

Schuster adds Reno Avenue is a busy corridor that acts as a barrier to visitors in Lower Bricktown who might want to patronize businesses like Boone's in the original Bricktown district.

Good point. Maybe we could build a Las Vegas-like walk over at Reno and Mickey Mantle? You can walk under by the canal, but access back to street level is almost non-existent on both sides.

...parking in Bricktown is still a bargain, compared to downtown Dallas, Denver, San Antonio and St. Louis. Others pointed out parking is rarely so bad that you cannot find a free spot within a two-block walk of the entertainment district.

This is so true. It's only really bad on Friday or Saturday nights from about 7-10. That's prime time and any measures to actually create free front door parking at those times would completely decimate the area with parking structures and black top.

Bricktown is a regionally successful entertainment district in the middle of a city's core and it still seems to be growing. Traffic is going to exist. Parking is not going to be at the front door for free for everyone. I don't understand the sense of entitlement prevalent in this community. People are saying "we want a nice entertainment district that we can be proud of, but only if it's convenient to me and only if it's free..."

[Midtowner]

People who complain about the parking in Bricktown haven't been to other cities to see similar developments. Parking is rarely free -- especially not at the front door. If I'm going to a baseball game, and wearing tennis shoes, I'll park in the Bass Pro BFE parking lot and walk in.. no big deal.

But if I'm dressed nicely, with a pair of $200 shoes on, I'll pay $5.00 to park -- no complaints.

As much complaining as there is from some sectors, Bricktown is a vibrant entertainment district, and all of that pay parking fills up quite quickly. Let the market decide whether pay-to-park schemes are the most profitable use for the land. If they aren't, the owners are free to erect restaurants/storefronts in that area and make more money.

[davido]

I park at Bass proshops and take the Trolley, free parking.

[jdweaver]

I know this statement will come across insensitive, but then again, oh well. I know we want all kinds of people spending their money in bricktown, but to me the people who can't spare a few dollars to park, park and ride a trolley, or heaven forbid, walk, are the people I don't mind letting miss out on all that bricktown has to offer.

[soonerliberal]

I know this statement will come across insensitive, but then again, oh well. I know we want all kinds of people spending their money in bricktown, but to me the people who can't spare a few dollars to park, park and ride a trolley, or heaven forbid, walk, are the people I don't mind letting miss out on all that bricktown has to offer.

I agree with ya... it's not insensitive. if you are too lazy to walk or too cheap to pay for parking, then don't go down there.

[jdsplaypin]

Amen

[Karried]

I noticed that most of the Hornet games parking went from $5 to
$8-10 ...

[Luke]

Walk. Heaven forbid. Sheesh.

[BDP]

People should also carpool and split the cost of parking. Save money. Save the planet. Save parking. Save Bricktown!

[Midtowner]

I noticed that most of the Hornet games parking went from $5 to
$8-10 ...

If you don't mind walking 2-4 blocks, you can always find parking on the street downtown for these things.

I think the Santa Fe garage is only around $2.00? And it's actually pretty close to the Ford Center.

Yeah, if you want to park accross the street, you'll pay extra.

[metro]

If you don't mind walking 2-4 blocks, you can always find parking on the street downtown for these things.

I think the Santa Fe garage is only around $2.00? And it's actually pretty close to the Ford Center.

Yeah, if you want to park accross the street, you'll pay extra.

The Sante Fe parking garage is only $2 on nights they are not expecting more than 10,000 people downtown. Otherwise they raise it to $6.00

[Midtowner]

-- and yet, according to COTPA's bonding paperwork, that garage still doesn't turn a profit, and never has!

Street parking is still free though, not to mention abundant if you're willing to walk a few blocks.

[BDP]

And, with Santa Fe, you can pretty much walk all the way through the Cox Center without going outside. Kind of nice when it's below freezing.

[Karried]

Actually, we always walk - we usually park near Bricktown Brewery ( why else - the brew!) and then walk in a drunken stupor ( just kidding) to the Ford Center... my favorite thing of all is to walk back with thousands of happy fans when we win... and even when we don't win, people are still in a fun mood.. there is nothing like enjoying a game. On warm nights, sitting out on the canal listening to music is also really nice. I have no problems whatsoever walk.. I always figure the more I walk, the more I can eat - that works for me. lol

[Doug Loudenback]

I guess that it's a question of priorities ... convenience in parking vs. the possible payoff in being where you want to be.

As for me, parking (though not important) is not nearly as important as the payoff, which I get every time I go to Bricktown, whether I pay to park or do not.

[GrandMaMa]

We used to operate our carriage business in Kansas more than we do now, but when we did, we saw a refreshing difference in the development of "Old Towne" in Wichita. I'm sure most of you are familiar with the project, which has been many years in the development. It seems as though their priorities were a little different from the beginning. They allowed development in blocks and didn't open the next blocks until the first blocks were fiilled, then they made certain that no further apart than every two blocks (some even closer) parking lots were provided and maintained (structerally and monitored safely and their use was free of charge. It appeared that the main impetus was not to get people's money as quickly as they could, but to provide a well designed, safe location for locals and tourists alike to enjoy. It has been a longer project, but it seems that the forward planning and continued consideration for the future patrons has paid off. Yes, the area does attract tourists, but it seems as though the locals patronize the area on a regular basis, thus keeping the income of the businesses less of a guessing game and something that they can count on. We also noticed that there was less bar hopping once a crowd landed in one or the other for the evening. I can't explain why, but it certainly kept the constant walking traffic of those that had already begin their imbibing off the streets and remaining in the club in which they began their night. Now, back to Dallas W. End Historic entertainment district, it is as close to demise that it can be without closing it's last doors. The west end market(which was definitely a family draw, along with the multi screen movies) has literally closed it's doors. The more original and mainstay clubs have given up their prize locations (which aren't prized anymore) and relocated closer to the new coliseum to the West. I would venture to say that there aren't 25% of the businesses that used to be there, still there, and the ones that are still there are struggling to make it on daytime lunchers and Sunday family outings. It's actually not even much fun to walk down Market street anymore, nothing to see out of the ordinary, no bullets to dodge (think I'm kidding?)..but, it is a shame, as it used to be a wonderful mix of all kinds of free outdoor concerts, fun activities for the kids, parking was reasonable and close enough to be safe to use, etc. Then, it all began to be taken for granted and the businesses went up on all of their prices, lease rates went up, every instance where someone could make another buck off patrons, there was always someone around to take advantage of it. The same thing happend in Deep Ellum, on the N side of downtown, although it has managed to survive a little better, although both of their breweries have been closed down. In retrospect, after living and working through all of it, I believe that if rules had been instituted and enforced from the beginning and a large and consistant police presence could be counted on, the negative wouldn't get such a foot hold and wouldn't have become such a problem. I still think that we need to go back to why the area was developed in the first place, and if some businesness have to be sacrificed or relocated to provide ample, free, safe and close parking for the different areas offerred to enjoy, plus an obvious influx of police presence that obviously mean business, it would be a good start. If folks do have free parking, they will park close to where they eat, then move their vehicle to another place that they plan to visit...I've seen it happen and it works.

[Dungeon Master]

At least we have it in black and white now. It's been clear that the developers are not interested in working with local independents to make bricktown unique and interesting. Brewer just made it official.

He should say it's not for lazy people with the mindset that just being in bricktown means success, instead of dismissing all of our local business owners at once. "

Although, I cannot be totally agreeable, I can state this.

The Dungeon IS , as quoted, "a mom and pop shop" and very lucky to still be there. In my view (and that could be fuzzy at times), look at it like a city ordinance. Do you want yards around your house not mowed, trashed out houses, clunker cars in your neighborhood? Well, the same thing with bricktown, it's their neighborhood. Now wait, before you accuse me of saying Boone's Store was any of that because that's not what I said or what I ment. I was referring to Brewer's statement "mom & pop shops". I worked very hard to make it a source of entertainment for folks to enjoy BUT to have something different, something no other city, state or country has.
It's a source of family/tourism entertainment.
Now let me ask you all this. HOW MANY PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM SHOPPED AT BOONE'S STORE?
With Boone's store and any business starting up, the first 3 years will be the toughest and many don't survive because they don't expect a slow start (and when they don't survive, they look for excuses). I'm deeply sorry to see Boone's go as the owner was really nice and she had a great thing going (at least I thought so). It was nice to visit with an idividual owner down there. But I guess she didn't have the funds to keep a "new business" up for hardly even a year. Yes, it's very expensive to rent in bricktown, "hello, I'm down there and I know", but if you lower the rates which brings in tasteless shops/stores, then that brings down the neighborhood (again, not referring to Boones so calm down).
I have sacrificed my savings, requested loans (even offered discounts on this forum) and did/still do most of the work myself to save money. If the Dungeon has to close down some day, all I can say is I gave it my all and EVERYTHING I HAD. It's my dream and I have only one chance to make it happen. Now I need to ask, HOW MANY OF YOU ON THIS FORUM HAVE VISITED THE DUNGEON? It's not everyone's cup of tea and I understand that (it's in the "Business Plan").
OK, enough of that.
Bricktown is still new and has room to grow. Yes it would grow quicker with lower rent but will lower rent bring MORE BARS? That's that last thing we need down there. There are enough!!!
Now to the topic "Parking".
I elect to pay for parking down there because that is what I want to do. I have a choice just like everyone else.
If we had more parking in bricktown, that's just more problems between people traffic and vehicle traffic. There is too much of that already and somebody will get ran over eventually (I really hope not though).
If you plan to have a good time with good friends/family, then what is the rush? Walk!
That's my $5.00 (the heck with 2 cents).

[BDP]

Good points, master.

I did not shop at Boone's, but I don't think I was their demographic, and it was rarely open when I was down there (evenings for games and movies, and late night for a night out). I'm not a tourist per se and I never thought it would fill my paticular gift needs. But again, I couldn't really know what they had if it wasn't open when I was there.

I'm in no way lobbying for reduced rent. If anything, I am just pointing out the fact that the city seems content to use local funds to assist outsiders like Bass Pro, but not locals who, in addition to pay roll taxes, also pay income taxes, sales taxes and, if they own a house here, ad velorum taxes locally. It just rubbed me the wrong way that Brewer seemed to lump all mom and pop, or local, businesses into the same management category as Boone's. Reduced rent or not, it is my impression that many developers are against considering new local businesses, even if that means leaving the space empty. It seems Boone's reinforced that idea for Brewer and his statement reinforced my suspicion.

Obviously, there can be greater risk associted with 'newbies', but there are ways to mitigate that risk in the lease. I could completely understand the developers doing business with larger outside businesses if they were crawling over each other to be in bricktown and if all the properties were full. But that doesn't seem to be the case and a lot of space sits idle and undeveloped.

I must admit that it is the local places that are there that I go to (with the exception of Harkins) and I don't think that simply placing familiar businesses iun the district will add any value to it, or differentiate from any other small entertainment district in the region. I also admit that I have not been to the Dugeon, but I like the idea and when my kid(s) are old enough to enjoy it, I hope to take them one day. I wouldn't mind more amusement attractions either. I think it can add a nice boardwalk type angle to the area, diversifying its appeal.

And, in my mind, the more diverse it's appeal, the more affordable parking becomes, because you can amortize the cost of parking across several activities, better justifying the expense.

[Dungeon Master]

Good points, master.

I am just pointing out the fact that the city seems content to use local funds to assist outsiders like Bass Pro, but not locals who, in addition to pay roll taxes, also pay income taxes, sales taxes and, if they own a house here, ad velorum taxes locally.

Obviously, there can be greater risk associted with 'newbies', but there are ways to mitigate that risk in the lease. I could completely understand the developers doing business with larger outside businesses if they were crawling over each other to be in bricktown and if all the properties were full. But that doesn't seem to be the case and a lot of space sits idle and undeveloped.

I wouldn't mind more amusement attractions either. I think it can add a nice boardwalk type angle to the area, diversifying its appeal.

And, in my mind, the more diverse it's appeal, the more affordable parking becomes, because you can amortize the cost of parking across several activities, better justifying the expense.

All good points and I agree.

[metro]

Speaking of parking in Bricktown. Have any of you noticed that since "the incident" the typical free lots (Bass Pro, Harkins, TBK, etc.) now have parking attendants and are validating? If you are not going to that specific business, they will charge you $5. Most of the businesses are giving you a parking pass (validating) when you patronize their stores, otherwise they will charge you on the way out. I've had several parking attendants, literally walk up to my car and ask where I was going, etc. since this past weekend.