The Transcript article about Norman’s future water supply.

[ou48A]

Then maybe they should start using more NG for power generation and cars? If it is so cheap, you would think these gas companies would be putting everything they could into making all cars use CNG.

There are government tax incentives and in some cases company incentives to make the switch to NG.
The Fed government just lowered the price of NG for trucks and cars by 50 cents per gallon equivalent.

But you say the government is broke. So it looks like we can’t afford any tax help.

Government is broke...

[Plutonic Panda]

I don't really want to get into another argument, but the government is broke. Sometimes it's best to try and to live within your means instead of relying on the government for everything.

[ou48A]

I don't really want to get into another argument, but the government is broke. Sometimes it's best to try and to live within your means instead of relying on the government for everything.

I agree with you that the GOV is broke. But I also believe in prosperity and security for our state and nation.

If we can do things that add to our states prosperity and security it’s smart.
If we can decreases spending of the type that does not add to our prosperity and security, that’s smart too.
But we never seem to get around to making enough of those types of cuts.
In fact we have been rapidly increasing our spending in areas that do not add to our prosperity or security.

[venture]

A short term tax break is better than losing the business and tax revenue forever.
It’s a net win for the states residents.

So we should be giving them back tax dollars because they have a failed business model and over produced instead of properly planning? What next? Tax dollars going back to airlines when fuel prices are too high or people didn't feel like going to Florida that year? Funny. They seem to remain one of the highest taxed industries in the world, but yet I don't see people saying they should get huge rebates so they pay in next to nothing.

[Dubya61]

During heavy rains the Arkansas River picks up a lot of salt near Hutchinson Kansas…
It also picks up a lot of farm pollution run off….

I use to swim and fish in Kaw Lake but I stopped when I realized that that the toilet content of my numerous Kansas relatives
was in that lake.

Note to self, drink only bottled water while in Stillwater.

Friend, there's only so much water out there, and unless you're collecting it straight from some sort of purification system (natural or man-made), you should probably consider it tainted in some fashion. I would not characterize Kaw Lake's water (or that of any reservoir) as toilet water, but surely you realize that even fish defecate. They've been doing it for some time, now.

Lots of people I've worked with agree with the idea that energy supplies are far less important and valuable than water supplies. I wonder if the future solution to water problems won't be desalinization and transportation of (the rising level of) sea water.

[ou48A]

So we should be giving them back tax dollars because they have a failed business model and over produced instead of properly planning? What next? Tax dollars going back to airlines when fuel prices are too high or people didn't feel like going to Florida that year? Funny. They seem to remain one of the highest taxed industries in the world, but yet I don't see people saying they should get huge rebates so they pay in next to nothing.

Many oil producers have operated under the thumb of OPEC which they have absolutely no control over their business model. This has a direct impact on you and everyone else.
OPEC has taken actions that include everything from an oil embargo against the USA to flooding the worlds markets with very cheap crude as they did in the 90’s when our economy boomed.
Normal business models don’t work for long in the oil business on the production side.

Most everyone has long known that it makes the US economy more prosperous when we protect our self to the extent we can from OPEC actions that have caused great impact to ordinary Americans.

[ou48A]

So we should be giving them back tax dollars because they have a failed business model and over produced instead of properly planning? What next? Tax dollars going back to airlines when fuel prices are too high or people didn't feel like going to Florida that year? Funny. They seem to remain one of the highest taxed industries in the world, but yet I don't see people saying they should get huge rebates so they pay in next to nothing.

The world goes around because of oil….. No other industry except for agriculture which is another strategic resource has such an impact on the modern world and it won’t likely change much in our lifetimes. These dwarf the airline industry and most other industries in scale and impact. All need good water.

[ou48A]

Friend, there's only so much water out there, and unless you're collecting it straight from some sort of purification system (natural or man-made), you should probably consider it tainted in some fashion. I would not characterize Kaw Lake's water (or that of any reservoir) as toilet water, but surely you realize that even fish defecate. They've been doing it for some time, now.

Lots of people I've worked with agree with the idea that energy supplies are far less important and valuable than water supplies. I wonder if the future solution to water problems won't be desalinization and transportation of (the rising level of) sea water.

LOL, yes I know…. It was more about the Stoolwater to Stillwater comparisons.

As you probably know there are desalinization plants around the world. As far as I know they all require huge amounts of energy making them pretty impractical for most.
There are 2 sources that I know of where fresh water in or near our state could be cleaned up by having the salt content reduced. One involves building a by-pass starting near the Kansas boarder and around the great Salt Plains Lake in NW Oklahoma. There are 2 places that could be plugged or diverted that would reduce the salt content of the Red River.

[Plutonic Panda]

I agree with you that the GOV is broke. But I also believe in prosperity and security for our state and nation.

If we can do things that add to our states prosperity and security it’s smart.
If we can decreases spending of the type that does not add to our prosperity and security, that’s smart too.
But we never seem to get around to making enough of those types of cuts.
In fact we have been rapidly increasing our spending in areas that do not add to our prosperity or security.

I agree with you on most points. However, and this just my opinion(don't hate me for it ), I really don't think you should've gotten a tax rebate or credits for installing energy efficient improvements to your house. The reason being, I think people should have responsibility to make their houses energy efficient and I think as the energy saving technology gets cheaper, the government needs to start forcing people to do it. Our planet only has so many resources and no matter how far out it is until we run out of them, I think it is our duty to be as efficient as possibly when it comes to power. Until we develop the technology to go out and harvest distant suns and maybe even a quasar that is

[ou48A]

I agree with you on most points. However, and this just my opinion(don't hate me for it ), I really don't think you should've gotten a tax rebate or credits for installing energy efficient improvements to your house. The reason being, I think people should have responsibility to make their houses energy efficient and I think as the energy saving technology gets cheaper, the government needs to start forcing people to do it. Our planet only has so many resources and no matter how far out it is until we run out of them, I think it is our duty to be as efficient as possibly when it comes to power. Until we develop the technology to go out and harvest distant suns and maybe even a quasar that is

Plutonic Panda, I would never hate you!

Many of these types of rebates / credits on energy efficient home improvements are intended to help reduce pollution and help industry’s that are new that produce products that reduce pollution. These types of rebates are often done for ideological reasons… I am not sure if these programs are a net gain for the economy or not but if they are then I am all for them. But if they are not a net gain then IMO they should be ended. But the money I have saved has helped my personal economy. But that’s the way I am with many government program because that’s the path to prosperity.

By far my biggest expense was when I installed a Geo thermal heat and air system to my home. It was manufacture in OKC. It would have been silly of me to have not taken advantage of the tax credit and a rebate from OG&E.

Most people take advantage of tax rebates & credits opportunities whenever they can.
The mortgage deduction is probably the biggest one that individual use.
If we don’t like these laws / programs then we need to work to repeal them.

[ljbab728]

I stopped by this thread, hoping to see something about the Norman water supply issues. I guess I got to the wrong thread. LOL

[Bunty]

I stopped by this thread, hoping to see something about the Norman water supply issues. I guess I got to the wrong thread. LOL

No wonder. There are no great solutions. What if the cost to build a pipeline to Hugo Lake is, let's guess, $500 million? Would Norman residents want to raise city sales tax by a penny or two to pay for it? Is Hugo Lake really big enough?

[TAlan CB]

Good question, others think so:
Controversy over water sales

In recent years Hugo Lake has been in the middle of a controversy regarding out-of-state water sales between Texas and Oklahoma. The city of Hugo had sought to sell water to the growing suburbs of Dallas that need new sources of water to pay debts related to the lake. Irving, Texas has entered negotiations with the Hugo to obtain a supply of fresh water by building a pipeline and purchasing excess water from Hugo Lake. In 2002 the Oklahoma state legislature passed a moratorium on water sales outside the state. Hugo sued the state in federal court citing that the state's moratorium is unconstitutional.[5]

That was an article found in Wikipedia.....

As to being big enough? How big does it need to be especially if it is to add to Thunderbird, not replace. Thunderbird is about 5,400 acres, Hugo is 13,200 acres.

[TAlan CB]

Up the stream from Lake Hugo is Lake Sardis as part of the same drainage basin on the Kiamichi River. It is even larger than Hugo:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ke_and_Dam.jpg

This singular river basin has large capacity that is already being sought after by Texas and Oklahoma City metro. But there are complications as this article from the New York Times points out....

When the Choctaw did have reservations, their land covered virtually all of southeastern Oklahoma and was watered by the Kiamichi River, whose tributary, Jackfork Creek, was impounded by the Sardis Dam in 1982. The tribes’ goals are to have some ownership and control over the water, to keep as much water as possible in the lake and to enhance southeastern Oklahoma’s recreational industry.

And, assuming the water is valuable, they want to share in the profits from selling or leasing it.

That prospect is unsettling for places that could face water shortages, like Oklahoma City and suburbs like Edmond, whose City Council has already voted to issue $102.5 million in bonds to help bring Sardis Lake water 110 miles north, to the taps of new homes. It is even more unsettling in the Southwest, where irrigated agriculture and industries consume most of the available water.

[ou48A]

No wonder. There are no great solutions. What if the cost to build a pipeline to Hugo Lake is, let's guess, $500 million? Would Norman residents want to raise city sales tax by a penny or two to pay for it? Is Hugo Lake really big enough?

I would like to see a very large pipeline built from the lakes in south eastern OK to the central Oklahoma area with the water going to participating municipalities, including Norman.

When a major job expansion occurs all of central Oklahoma sees growth. I believe we need to look at this as a regional project with the cost and benefits shared by many.

I believe that Norman voters would pass a sales tax increase for water expansion (and for commuter rail). Because Norman has so many visitors spending money in Norman I would be in favor of a sales tax increase to cover at least part of the projects cost.

[ou48A]

Up the stream from Lake Hugo is Lake Sardis as part of the same drainage basin on the Kiamichi River. It is even larger than Hugo:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ke_and_Dam.jpg

This singular river basin has large capacity that is already being sought after by Texas and Oklahoma City metro. But there are complications as this article from the New York Times points out....

When the Choctaw did have reservations, their land covered virtually all of southeastern Oklahoma and was watered by the Kiamichi River, whose tributary, Jackfork Creek, was impounded by the Sardis Dam in 1982. The tribes’ goals are to have some ownership and control over the water, to keep as much water as possible in the lake and to enhance southeastern Oklahoma’s recreational industry.

And, assuming the water is valuable, they want to share in the profits from selling or leasing it.

That prospect is unsettling for places that could face water shortages, like Oklahoma City and suburbs like Edmond, whose City Council has already voted to issue $102.5 million in bonds to help bring Sardis Lake water 110 miles north, to the taps of new homes. It is even more unsettling in the Southwest, where irrigated agriculture and industries consume most of the available water.

Assuming we decided to build a pipeline to SE Oklahoma would we be in for a long court battle with the Choctaw’s over the water?
Hopefully they would be more agreeable to sell to people in their own home state than to out of state cities.

But it would be a wise move on our part to act on this issue ASAP, before an agreement is reached with any of the Texas cities making this source of water no longer available to us!

[LocoAko]

Went to Lake Thunderbird today (the western side, under the Alameda bridge). I'm still relatively new to the area, but it was shocking to see how low it was. Pretty depressing, actually. Don't mind the huge dead fish... I thought it was worth documenting, lol.

555302_10151250646039200_1990084147_n.jpg
550637_10151250645999200_1750104853_n.jpg
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530676_10151250646024200_253237946_n.jpg
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23375_10151250646989200_1782997394_n.jpg

[kevinpate]

Reminds me of early summer 2006.

[TAlan CB]

Perhaps this may not be as expensive or difficult as we think. The 5' pipe that comes to Lake Draper from Atoka Res. has recently been repaired. That is the reason Draper was empty for more than a year. In SE Ok lakes Atoka, Sardis, & Hugo form a triangle - with Atoka the farthest west in the center. It is only 50 miles from lake Hugo to Atoka, and about the same from Lake Sardis to Atoka. Pipe lines could be built from each of these lakes to Atoka. And from Draper to Thunderbird. In this manner, the drain on any one lake would be less, the cost for construction less. This COMBINED with water useage restrictions (habit changes) creates a greatly decreased demand with a more secure supply. Yes the Indians would charge, but I suspect not much. The Chickasaw are very supportive of growth in a responsible manner - the Choctaw, who knows.

I have lived in the SE US in cities that are seeing their supply lakes dry up in minor (realitive) droughts. Here, city supported refunds on low-flow toilets, shower heads, and retrictions on yard irrigation greatly decreased water consumption. I use to laugh at them because they would grow grasses that would require much more watering (like fescues and ryes) just so they could have year-round green yards. Bermuda grasses grew fine, but all the northern transplants wanted their year-round green. Slowly they are learning. By severly restricting irragation - just enough to keep the bermuda alive through the winter, water consumption was greatly reduced. In the long-run, xeroscaping and using native plants would be best, but there can be lots of saving just by strictly enforcing (expensive fines for repeat violators) irrigation regulations. This is especially true in Oklahoma where 'summer grasses' are used extensively.

The water is there, if you have the foresight to plan, invest, and use it wisely. The days of waste are taking their toll. But the biggest toll is on the minds of the people who expect everything with little or no cost. Low flow toilets work fine (no, you don't have to flush again), low flow shower heads are easy to get use to. Our forefathers in Oklahoma sought out and built lakes because of their experience with the great droughts early in the previous century. It is up to modern Oklahomans to use these new resources wisely, or you to will once again become 'Okies' leaving the land you destroyed.

[BG918]

Reminds me of early summer 2006.

Yeah I remember that summer well. We had terrible drought and fires, and Norman was worried about running out of water. Then came summer 2007 and its record rainfall which carried into 2008 and 2009..

Hopefully we have one of those on the horizon.

[venture]

We just need one tropical storm to move up from the Gulf and sit for a month again. That will do wonders to fix the problem. We just need to find a way to keep the water though once we have it.