Streetcar

[Steve]

I've not seen anything that convinces me that enough questions were asked about any of the MAPS 3 projects....

[catch22]

There were people attacking the council for wanting this process. Matt and David went on to draw a false conclusion that the Streetcar was getting unfair treatment. Comparing this process to the Boulevard is just silly. They are not similar in just about any way from a project standpoint.

I'm defending the council for being eager to get to this final review phase because there are at least a couple of them that have concerns.

(Sid, I'm cutting out the rest of the post to save space and clutter but I am keeping what I am specifically replying to)

Obviously the two projects are completely different and in most aspects unrelated from each other (except for 2 blocks on the south end of the proposed route). I was using the Boulevard as more of a reference point to how two-faced the council seems to be issue-to-issue. For one project they are begging for more input, the other they are trying to silence input. I'm all for equality....you need to allow public input for all projects and it is my personal feeling (which may be 100% off, but it is still my opinion) that the streetcar is being treated unfairly. None of the other projects are receiving any of the same questions. Obviously each project is on a different timeline and in different phases of their development. However, there does not seem to be any tough questions going to any of the other projects. I don't really see where they are looking to just get the route confirmed, they seem to be implying the proposed route needs to change. At least that is how their tone came across to me, and apparently others as well.

I agree this is friendly fire, though. And I also can't wait to ride the streetcar.

[Just the facts]

Getting through the last 2 or 3 pages was tough, but I have never been 'happy' about the streetcar route, couplets, or anyone wanting to investigate 'experimental' propulsion systems. I am glad the route is getting scrutiny.

1) There seems to be a myth the streetcar has to run in a straight line or it will be too confusing. The reality is the streetcar has to go where the people want to go, and in OKC those areas are not in a straight line. The original OKC streetcar system didn't run in a straight line and I have research dozens of streetcar systems around the world and none of them even come close to straight lines, even the much heralded Portland system looks like a drunken blind guy drew the southern portion. When you get to Europe the streetcar lines look like someone dropped a bowl of spaghetti.

2) Couplets are not the answer for OKC because we don't even have that question. OKC no longer has one-way downtown streets that would require the use of couplets. Running streetcar both directions on the same street doubles the number of properties within 1 block of two-way travel. If converting streets from one-way to two-way makes sense, then why would we implement one-way street cars? I know people think it will create a great pedestrian mall between the two couplets but in reality the growth will occur along the streetcar line, not on the side streets.

3) OKC doesn't have the resources to go around searching for experimental propulsion systems. We need to go with what we (and the rest of the street car world) know works, two rails in the ground and an overhead electric line.

Anyhow, two years ago I said I would wait until some point in the future for the route assumptions and decisions to be reviewed by council and here we are.

OKC's original streetcar network

[BoulderSooner]

I'm not arguing with anything you've said ...except.... $80 million for the land for the convention center? Where in the world did you get this figure?

don't know for sure but i think the 80 mil number comes if you use the vitagraph property as the comp for the CC site ..

[Just the facts]

don't know for sure but i think the 80 mil number comes if you use the vitagraph property as the comp for the CC site ..

The Stage Center site might also play a role. With multiple interested parties it won't go cheap, the only question is will it 'go' before the CC site.

[Urban Pioneer]

JTF, thanks for re-posting that map. It really helps illustrate how big of a system we used to have.

Regarding couplets, I have vehemently argued in the past that they should be considered as we were told by Rick Gustafsen and other experienced streetcar planners that is what everybody is doing now. That is that "couplet designs" are being considered in both most American and European cities. Apparently this design stimulates greater economic development.

However, with that said, I want to directly question Gustafsen about it. It has been pointed out that while couplets are being "planned", there are really very few of them in existence. Also, it has been pointed out that our street bock widths are significantly greater than some of the other cities used for comparison thus involving a longer walk.

I personally do think that significant and meaningful signage would be critical to communicating how the system works if tracks are separated by a block although presumably the locals would figure it out relatively quickly.

There is also the overall width of Broadway, which is 80'. Obviously, a double track throughout Automobile Alley could easily be accommodated with center island stops, just like in the old days. However, there are turns at EK Gaylord/3rd that would have to be accommodated going Northbound.

And obviously Broadway dead ends into the the super block of the Cox Convention Center at Sheridan necessitating a turn to the east or the west.

The subcommittee is pretty confident that we have given engineers and planners a very good "tweaked" Locally Preferred Alternative.

But yeah, if it needs to be changed or improved, we are hoping to have good discussions with the experienced professionals to draw those conclusions.

Regarding the Council and scrutiny, obviously they have the final say. But requests and suggestions from most of them have been directly incorporated coalescing to the the LPA that we now have.

[Larry OKC]

Urban: that is what is bewildering about recent Council remarks since some of the same folks expressing concerns have been involved in the process???

[OKCisOK4me]

So with the 2 year postponement of the Boulevard, we're now looking at a delay for this segment of the streetcar. They going to put turnstiles in?? I mean, if all goes well with procurement of funding and actual construction of the route, when is it planned to start? 2015 or 2017? Surely when ODOT and the city build the boulevard between Shields and Robinson, they will incorporate the relocation of utilities with the streetcar route so that it won't have to be torn up again.

[BoulderSooner]

So with the 2 year postponement of the Boulevard, we're now looking at a delay for this segment of the streetcar. They going to put turnstiles in?? I mean, if all goes well with procurement of funding and actual construction of the route, when is it planned to start? 2015 or 2017? Surely when ODOT and the city build the boulevard between Shields and Robinson, they will incorporate the relocation of utilities with the streetcar route so that it won't have to be torn up again.

there are very few utilities under the old I40 ... and 16 is a very late estimate ... the blvd will most likely be done in 15

[OKCisOK4me]

there are very few utilities under the old I40 ... and 16 is a very late estimate ... the blvd will most likely be done in 15

Thank you for filling me in on information I was not aware of, but do you A) have concrete evidence of when this portion of the boulevard is suppose to begin and B) if ODOT is going to work with the city and whatever company installs the streetcar route when it comes to this segment? Thanks.

[BoulderSooner]

Thank you for filling me in on information I was not aware of, but do you A) have concrete evidence of when this portion of the boulevard is suppose to begin and B) if ODOT is going to work with the city and whatever company installs the streetcar route when it comes to this segment? Thanks.

there has not been any indication that odot will work with the city to mitigate duplicate efforts concerning the streetcar ... how ever the city has told the Subcommittee that they are talking about this issue with odot ..

and i don't think there is yet a concrete timeline ..

[OKCisOK4me]

I think they should just work on this segment of the boulevard last and just build the streetcar route into it at the very same time. There's no reason for them not to coordinate with eachother and the timing may end up being perfect.

[Urban Pioneer]

JTF- "Urban: that is what is bewildering about recent Council remarks since some of the same folks expressing concerns have been involved in the process???" Well I think you just used the same word our Vice Chairman used in the Oklahoman article "bewildering". I can honestly say that direct input from Pete White, former Councilman Sam Bowman, Meg Salyer, and Mayor Cornett have directly influenced route recommendations helping coalesce the route into the current proposal. Pat Ryan and Larry McAttee have not had any qualms about the proposed route taht we know of. Meg Salyer, Mayor Cornett, Ed Shadid, Pete White, Skip Kelly, Pat Ryan, and former Councilman Sam Bowman have had personal, extensive tours of the route. I cannot remember if Larry McAttee went on any of the tours as various committee members took them in different groups. I do know that Gary Marrs and David Greenwell have been extended offers multiple times for tours and direct input and have not accepted the invitation. At the direct request of former Councilman Sam Bowman, Skip Kelly, and Pete White, assessment of the NE Corridor (The Adventure Line) was directly incorporated into our process. We also took Council Members who were not as invested in the Adventure Line on tours of that as well to help them understand the issues surrounding it. So... with that in mind, I'd say that perhaps this process has simply gone on so long that some people have either forgotten the input that they gave was incorporated, they want to re-emphasize elements of our projects that are dear to their perspectives, or they do not want to deal with the committee directly at all and feel that speaking from the horseshoe is effective enough. And it probably is. We do watch these meeting and we do try to accommodate their concerns and desires. I will say that this process is about to be very quickly "sped up" and that there are some very good things that are happening even this week. Everything will be "re-vetted" by professionals that we have confidence in.

[Urban Pioneer]

This is the way this post is supposed to look. A little easier to read. The edit feature have completely shut down. JTF- "Urban: that is what is bewildering about recent Council remarks since some of the same folks expressing concerns have been involved in the process???" Well I think you just used the same word our Vice Chairman used in the Oklahoman article "bewildering". I can honestly say that direct input from Pete White, former Councilman Sam Bowman, Meg Salyer, and Mayor Cornett have directly influenced route recommendations helping coalesce the route into the current proposal. Pat Ryan and Larry McAttee have not had any qualms about the proposed route that we know of. Meg Salyer, Mayor Cornett, Ed Shadid, Pete White, Skip Kelly, Pat Ryan, and former Councilman Sam Bowman have had personal, extensive tours of the route. I cannot remember if Larry McAttee went on any of the tours as various committee members took them in different groups. I do know that Gary Marrs and David Greenwell have been extended offers multiple times for tours and direct input and have not accepted the invitation. At the direct request of former Councilman Sam Bowman, Skip Kelly, and Pete White, assessment of the NE Corridor (The Adventure Line) was directly incorporated into our process. We also took Council Members who were not as invested in the Adventure Line on tours of that as well to help them understand the issues surrounding it. So... with that in mind, I'd say that perhaps this process has simply gone on so long that some people have either forgotten the input that they gave was incorporated, they want to re-emphasize elements of our projects that are dear to their perspectives, or they do not want to deal with the committee directly at all and feel that speaking from the horseshoe is effective enough. And it probably is. We do watch these meeting and we do try to accommodate their concerns and desires. I will say that this process is about to be very quickly "sped up" and that there are some very good things are happening in the very near future. Everything will be "re-vetted" by professionals that we have confidence in and their will be a further public process.

[Urban Pioneer]

I give up. The editing mechanism has completely locked up and won't let me save changes.

[ljbab728]

I think everything understands what you're saying without any editing, UP. Thanks for othe imformation.

[ljbab728]

Please note that I had the same problem trying to edit my post for typos. It didn't work. I guess we're just all going to have to be perfect the first time. LOL

[catch22]

Just for fun, I keep a map of projects and their relative status in my Google Earth program on my laptop. Here they are overlaid with the proposed streetcar route:



Note my map only contains new construction and doesn't include renovations. Red = Under construction or soon to be. Pink = Solid proposed project but not under construction. Blue = On the horizon but not really confirmed to be solid yet.

[OKCisOK4me]

I get goosebumps thinking about how that will look in 10 years!

[Just the facts]

No worries UP, to echo ljbab728's comment - we get the jist of it. If anything, the streetcar has probably had too much public input but that is the nature of MAPS. Most cities start with the rail plan first and then try to obtain funding. This causes most of the debate to center around funding. OKC did it the other way around. Getting the funding was the 'easy' part, so all we have left is to do is argue about the route, and there is plenty of time to do that while we wait for funding to accrue.

[Urban Pioneer]

That is a very interesting way to look at it. I dare say a very accurate way imhop also.It is a bit frustrating... No.. Very frustrating, for myself and other committee members to be described by Councilman Shadid and others to be resistant to public input. There has certainly been more input over the broadest period of time than any other of the MAPS projects.We just tried to exert leadership to come up with what we think is a sensible design to hand off to the consultants. And there will be even more public input into this process in the coming months.

[Just the facts]

While I was a city planner in the Tampa area our big thing at the time was a Hillsborough County light-rail system. I attended countless MPO meeting on it, listened to hundreds of people offer suggestions, and on and on. 13 years later, there is still no Hillsborough County rail systems. On the other hand, the TECO streetcar line was built with almost no public input. They just said here is the plan, had 3 public meetings, and built it.

[Urban Pioneer]

Feel free to "Like"... lol Big updates forthcoming...

Oklahoma City Streetcar | Facebook

[Praedura]

Feel free to "Like"... lol Big updates forthcoming...

Oklahoma City Streetcar | Facebook

kewl!

[LakeEffect]

Feel free to "Like"... lol Big updates forthcoming...

Oklahoma City Streetcar | Facebook

Who is running the page? What names are behind this? There's no info on the Facebook page.