John Rex Elementary

[Spartan]

If the exterior style of a building not being cool enough in someone's mind is reason to or not to move downtown, then they probably aren't very committed to the idea anyway. I can understand not being crazy about the design, but it isn't offensive...just could have been more to my liking. However, once again, let's see how it turns out. We have a tendency to be hyper critical of all designs on this board.

You always say that. So when IS the right time to critique our developments and insist on higher quality?

You judge a lot HVAC units on this board just by seeing a mere rendering...

[Rover]

You always say that. So when IS the right time to critique our developments and insist on higher quality?

You judge a lot HVAC units on this board just by seeing a mere rendering...

Huh? "judge a lot HVAC units on this board"...what the heck is that supposed to mean?

Sometimes the right time to judge is after it is completed. Doesn't mean you can't have an opinion beforehand. In this case, the early remarks DID lead to what I would consider improvements. But the fact is that most people have a hard time truly interpreting the effects of scale, surfaces, its context in the environment, etc. I have always appreciated your comments because you have training, experience, and context. Others, not so much. Most cannot take the renderings and truly visualize what the designer has in mind or how it will actually look. But everyone is super critical. To move or not to move downtown based on the look of the school...give me a break. To want to run a designer out of town...give me a break. Whether this is a higher quality look or not in many cases boils down to mere preferences. Of course, good urban design is more than opinion, but often style is opinion only.

[LandRunOkie]

Whether this is a higher quality look or not in many cases boils down to mere preferences. Of course, good urban design is more than opinion, but often style is opinion only.

Sure. So who's style is this rendering meant to represent? I think I speak more a lot of potential downtown homebuyers when I say it doesn't represent my style. I'm 27 and have been told I have good taste. How old are you and why are you defending something you admit doesn't impress you?

[TAlan CB]

Futuristic? hardly, contemporary architecture is about space , form, and function ... not always in the best order. I agree that the "face" this building design shows is not very thoughtful, it certainly seems to say "wall". But, taste are subjective.

[Rover]

Sure. So who's style is this rendering meant to represent? I think I speak more a lot of potential downtown homebuyers when I say it doesn't represent my style. I'm 27 and have been told I have good taste. How old are you and why are you defending something you admit doesn't impress you?

There are "styles" of architecture.

If you don't like contemporary, then you might not want to keep looking in SOSA. It is filling with cool, contemporary style housing which might repulse you.

As far as being told you have good taste, it is only a complement if the person doing the complementing knows what they are talking about.

I am not defending the school exterior look...which I am ambivalent about, but rather expressing shock at some way over the top comments. If people want to be taken seriously they should act seriously. Age isn't an issue, maturity is.

[LandRunOkie]

The target audience for an elementary school in a growing neighborhood is first-time homebuyers. The reason you didn't answer my question is because that isn't you. Its economically irrelevant what anyone other than urban first-time homebuyers thinks about this school.

[Spartan]

Huh? "judge a lot HVAC units on this board"...what the heck is that supposed to mean?

Sometimes the right time to judge is after it is completed. Doesn't mean you can't have an opinion beforehand. In this case, the early remarks DID lead to what I would consider improvements. But the fact is that most people have a hard time truly interpreting the effects of scale, surfaces, its context in the environment, etc. I have always appreciated your comments because you have training, experience, and context. Others, not so much. Most cannot take the renderings and truly visualize what the designer has in mind or how it will actually look. But everyone is super critical. To move or not to move downtown based on the look of the school...give me a break. To want to run a designer out of town...give me a break. Whether this is a higher quality look or not in many cases boils down to mere preferences. Of course, good urban design is more than opinion, but often style is opinion only.

Holiday Inn Express - OKCTalk

But like you said, it's about training, experience, and context. When you mentioned the cooling units in the Holiday Inn Express, you were providing very valuable insight and criticism of a project that is not yet built. Hopefully your criticism will be actionable.

My problem with the way that criticism is being incorporated lately is that when people get a 1 and say that they want a 5, en masse, the city or developer comes back with a 2. Not even a 3.

Take for example the boulevard, the the parking garage, or the elementary school. Then Lackmeyer writes an article praising the bump from 1 to 2.

SMH

[LandRunOkie]

Wow I've been looking at the TAP website and its really unimpressive. How could such an important design project go to such an undistinguished firm? How were they chosen? How could the most important elementary in the city get designed by a bunch of OSU grads? Now that I look at their website, I would be fine with blacklisting them. They've done enough damage already.
Edit: I really don't want to make this about OSU, but is it really the best place for urban architects? I'm always in favor of importing architects for important urban projects. Its a chance to import styles as well.

[catch22]

Wow I've been looking at the TAP website and its really unimpressive. How could such an important design project go to such an undistinguished firm? How were they chosen? How could the most important elementary in the city get designed by a bunch of OSU grads? Now that I look at their website, I would be fine with blacklisting them. They've done enough damage already.

OSU has a fantastic architecture program, and urban planning and design as well. Arguably better than OU.

[Spartan]

OSU has a fantastic architecture program, and urban planning and design as well. Arguably better than OU.

OSU does not have urban planning or design, but it's arch program is top 20. Very respected. OU's is sad.

They may expand the school soon.

[Urbanized]

There is that unfortunate and incendiary "blacklisting" term again. Architectural McCarthyism. Should they be tarred and feathered too?

Rand Elliott among others is an OSU alum. You're painting with a pretty broad brush, LandRun. Perhaps you should try another topic.

[Spartan]

Most OSU arch grads are in NYC or Chicago.

[catch22]

OSU does not have urban planning or design, but it's arch program is top 20. Very respected. OU's is sad.

They may expand the school soon.

Are you sure? I swear I saw it on their website and have seen some discussion about it?

Maybe I was looking at OSU....Ohio. Lol.

[LandRunOkie]

Then maybe the city/okcps should be reaching out to the ones in Chicago/NYC, because this crew ain't getting it done!

[CuatrodeMayo]

Off topic but I have to chime in here. There may not be an official urban design program, but I can assure you that the principles of urban design are well understood and utilized in projects done in the Okstate school of architecture. Besides, the argument here is not the whether or not the school is "urban", but about the architecture of the facade.

[LandRunOkie]

OSU does not have urban planning or design, but it's arch program is top 20. Very respected. OU's is sad.

Are you telling me that if I spend the $40 on the DesignIntelligence report, I'll see Okie State on the top 20 list? Or is this according to Spartan's personal architecture school ranking system? It seems like with the health of our economy there would be plenty of more qualified architects from better schools to be doing these extremely high-profile projects. It's time for the good ol' boy network to perish, at least in Okc's architecture and urban design.

[Urbanized]

Ah, the infamous "good ol' boy" network. I guess by definition anybody selected for public projects is a part of it and anyone NOT selected is an outsider? Do you know someone with a better (in your esteemed opinion) proposal who was passed over here or something?

Not that long ago TAP was a new firm in this town, with a principal who was not only not from Oklahoma but actually from another country entirely. I know of instances when TAP has been passed over for projects they were crushed to lose out on, and even where a number of outsiders felt they had the strongest proposal. Sometimes that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

Now they are a part of the "good ol' boy" network? Maybe what has happened instead is that they have a compiled a history of quality work and learned how to respond well to RFPs. It's fine to not care for a particular design and to say so, but you should really have some backup before you start publicly throwing around those accusations.

I still haven't figured out whether you have yet another personal axe to grind here or are instead simply trolling, but either way it is getting tedious.

[LandRunOkie]

Ah, the infamous "good ol' boy" network. I guess by definition anybody selected for public projects is a part of it and anyone NOT selected is an outsider? Do you know someone with a better (in your esteemed opinion) proposal who was passed over here or something?

No but I know for a fact that bribes happen all the time when it comes to the contract bidding process. That's in the oil industry but I'm sure it happens in government projects as well. With that in mind, public scrutiny on government projects is a vital form of citizen feedback. Its the only way to get the most out of tax dollars. I'm not saying TAP bribed anyone, but all citizens should be skeptical of how this design was chosen, when virtually no one here likes it.

I still haven't figured out whether you have yet another personal axe to grind here or are instead simply trolling, but either way it is getting tedious.

I have no affiliation with any design groups in this city. The angle I represent is urban first-time homebuyers, the people this project will actually impact. My opinion on this is actually extremely relevant.

I really think the city needs to go back to the drawing board and use first-time homebuyers as a focus group for selecting the new downtown elementary design.

[BrettM2]

I have no affiliation with any design groups in this city. The angle I represent is urban first-time homebuyers, the people this project will actually impact. My opinion on this is actually extremely relevant.

I really think the city needs to go back to the drawing board and use first-time homebuyers as a focus group for selecting the new downtown elementary design.

I understand how the design of a dwelling space would impact your desire to move to a certain area. I cannot fathom why the design of the elementary school would do the same. It is the quality of the education and the safety of kids that should drive any impact the school creates. We can debate the design in terms of what is best for the area, etc., etc., but to say that you would avoid moving to an area simply because the design of the school is not up to your expectations seems to be out of place.

[Urbanized]

So now there is an inference that a bribe COULD have taken place here, but with an admission of no actual knowledge whatsoever regarding how this particular selection was made? Your first reaction when you see a design that doesn't fit your personal style criteria is to think someone was probably bribed during the selection/design process? Those are reckless and dangerous suggestions.

Again, railing against a particular design based on its merits is completely fair. Dragging real people through the mud because you don't happen to like the way they draw a particular building is something completely different.

[Pete]

I generally like the design and give TAP credit for making some modifications due to public input (more windows, softening up some elements, etc.).

Also remember, it's principals are all personally invested in downtown. The bought and renovated the building they occupy on Broadway (before AA became cool), were really the visionaries behind most of what is happening in Deep Deuce, built the Brownstones, Maywood Lofts, etc., etc.

And as far as getting this contract, I can almost guarantee you that they are not going to make much money over designing a public elementary school.


There is a time and place for public input and even criticism of projects but that is all going to fall on deaf ears unless you bother to get educated on the bigger picture.

[LandRunOkie]

...to say that you would avoid moving to an area simply because the design of the school is not up to your expectations seems to be out of place.

How so? If you were considering a neighborhood but found the elementary classes were held inside of a barn, you would still buy a house there? How many quality teachers would want to work in such a building?

Your first reaction when you see a design that doesn't fit your personal style criteria is to think someone was probably bribed during the selection/design process? Those are reckless and dangerous suggestions.

How so?

Again, railing against a particular design based on its merits is completely fair. Dragging real people through the mud because you don't happen to like the way they draw a particular building is something completely different.

It is a public building financed with public money. You shouldn't be chastising people for volunteering their constructive criticism. Do you care to explain why you know that the TAP principals were so let down when their proposals weren't accepted. Aren't you really just defending some friends rather than defending the design?

[dankrutka]

I'm sorry, but LandRunOkie's derailing of every thread is getting tiresome... This board is for intelligent commentary not baseless accusations and uneducated opinions. Seriously. Think before you post.

[BrettM2]

How so? If you were considering a neighborhood but found the elementary classes were held inside of a barn, you would still buy a house there? How many quality teachers would want to work in such a building?

That is a completely different scenario and to suggest the two are linked is hyperbole in the extreme.

[Rover]

I think LRO has been very successful in turning this thread into a discussion about him. Very narcissistic. So, don't feed it. Let's just ignore the tangential irrelevant posts and talk about other aspects of the project in an intelligent way.

Do you think the recent tragedy in Connecticut will effect a change in the design of this school with regard to securing the perimeter, holding areas for visitors, scanning devices, cameras, etc.? This would be a perfect project to incorporate current security into a school building. OKC could take the lead in this issue.