LifeChurchTV

[metro]

No but all I'm saying is that we'll have to agree to disagree, obviously your not going to agree with the consensus on this particular topic.

[Midtowner]

So if I want to call it franchising, I reserve the right to do so. That's essentially what it is. It expands the customer base for book sales, tithes, etc.

[PhilTLL]

They are into saving lost lives across geographical borders.

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.com/ ?

[metro]

Yes, and so is docters without borders, can't we all just serve one another?

[Midtowner]

Selling faith at such a high markup isn't exactly serving anyone.

How much of Lifechurch's revenue is used towards philanthropic activities? Any at all?

[osupa05]

Mid.. have you been to new orleans, lately? LC tries to go there at least once a month to serve the people there (who incidently still have next to nothing). Have you been to the local downtown mission to serve food to the homeless or work in the food pantry? Have you been to Honduras to take medicine to people who are sick and have no doctor? It's not a question of "philanthropic activities", but a matter of spreading God's love through service.

[Midtowner]

No, I haven't. Betcha my church spends more on those places than yours though

-- and how much of the money for those trips came from church funds? Most likely from separate fundraising, right?

[metro]

osupa, did you catch the announcement on the new location this past weekend. Unfortunately I was unable to attend so I missed it. Also if you have an update on the new NW OKC campus it would be appreciated.

[Martin]

honestly, there are several things about lifechurch and similar congregations that make me feel uncomfortable. however, i don't believe that the argument 'my church gives more than your church' is productive to the discussion. despite the problems i have with lifechurch, i do think that many of its members are good people who are generous with their giving and with their service. personally, i believe that it is a far greater thing to give of your time than to simply give with your money... but that's a different discussion.

that said, i'd have to agree with the comment that lifechurch is a 'franchise.' franchises exist so that consumers know what to expect before they walk in the door. i can expect the same experience at mcdonald's regardless if i dine in edmond or in south okc. just the same, i can expect the same experience at lifechurch whether or not i go to edmond or to south okc... in fact, since the message is sent via video, i can expect practically the same experience. just as any franchise, lifechurch strongly maintains a brand identity. just as mcdonald's differentiates itself from other fast food chains, lifechurch differentiates itself from other churches... even others of similar faith. it's logotype and advertising are consistent across multiple media and campaigns to reinforce the lifechurch brand. as much as mcdonald's uses franchising to better market fast food, lifechurch uses franchising to better market god.

i have two major gripes with lifechurch. first, i find it highly suspect when those on senior staff of a church are paid large sums of money. of lifechurch's senior staff, not one lives in a home that is less than 3000 square feet. in the far north okc/edmond market that translates to a house that is $300,000+. scripture tells us that 'the laborer is worthy of his hire', but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth when money that is put into a collection plate and given to god is used so that a small group of people can live a lavish lifestyle.

my second gripe is more with church's that are like lifechurch and not just with lifechurch itself. to me, the services seem to focus more on entertainment. most feature flashy sets and lighting and a full rock band. without a doubt, people attend these churches because they feel that a traditional service is too boring. in essence, people go to be entertained... regardless of what they may say. in fact, lifechurch and others use the word 'experience' instead of 'worship service.' to me, their choice of words is telling. an experience is something that you witness... a tv show, a concert... those who go are spectators, not participants. the focus easily becomes, what can i get rather than what can i give.

honestly, i'm not trying to bash somebody else's faith or their congregation... i'm just concerned about the values that these places espouse and what they teach by word and example. -M

[metro]

So are you saying you put your God in a box on how he chooses to work in others? God must conform to your beliefs and ideals or else it is wrong? Is that not the same principal you are judging lifechurch.tv and others like it? The God I serve is not to small to do anything. If he chooses non-traditional means so be it, after all, church is not about pleasing one self, but worshiping God. If a person has to use non-traditional means to bring in people that otherwise would not be in church and perhaps at a place exactly opposite of church, who are we to judge? More "traditional" churches don't operate like churches did 500, 1000, or 2000 years ago, so how is that any different? They changed with the times, just like Lifechurch.tv has done. Can you blame them for being one of the few to adapt over the last century?Old songs use to be chants, most "traditional" or "old-fashioned" churches I know dont do chants or monotone songs. If we were all the same and worshipped God the same, there would be no need for us, thus the whole principal of free will, that is what is beautiful to God because we are all unique and can worship him differently despite humanly differences right? A hymnal to one might be entertaining or "pleasing" while the same can be said about a more "rock band feel" although I think they are more slow and contemporary, nothing near what their "high-octane" experience used to be or some other churches who actually play rock. Obviously we believe in the same "Christian" God which is really the important thing if you think about it. If God didn't agree with lifechurch or thought it was wrong, is there not 1000000 ways he could strike it down or make it dissolve? The God I serve could strike it down an infinite times faster than it grew to its current state. For the sake of peace can we all agree to disagree on this issue.

[Martin]

of course we can agree to disagree, that's understood... however, that doesn't mean that there isn't a place for intellectual debate on the subject. as i had stated earlier, i'm concerned... i'm just not so sure that churches like lifechurch foster a relationship with god that is on his terms.

i believe that people must conform to christ or else they are wrong. i believe that the only way to do this is by studying and obeying what is found in scripture. it's therefore not a matter of somebody conforming to my beliefs and preferences, it's a matter of conforming to god's will. therefore, it's not my aim to judge lifechurch and its ilk by my standards, but by scriptural standards.

while my personal preferences lie with more traditional forms of worship, it's not a matter of 'traditional' versus 'contemporary' that i base my argument and it's not simply about what i prefer. of course, the church has changed over time. the forms of worship that are currently considered traditional were at some point considered contemporary.

the problem i have is with the attitude of worship. there's nothing wrong with worship being entertaining, but we don't worship because it's entertaining. i honestly think that so-called 'contemporary' worship creates spectators out of people who should be actively worshipping. they're there to watch a show and to get recharged. many are there to get rather than to give. if the band didn't play well and if the singers didn't sing well, then many of these people would stop attending.

given your logic, we should just change our laws so that they force people to be in church. wouldn't that be a non-traditional way of 'bringing people in?' who would you be to judge that? whether you force people to go to church or use a gimmick to get them to come, it doesn't do any good if their heart isn't in it. sure, lifechurch encourages alot of people... but i'm not sure that it encourages people to obey and respect god.

of course god could strike down lifechurch if it were his will. he could also strike down islam, hinduism, budhism and any other errant teaching. lifechurch's success does not necessarily indicate god's approval. i believe that churches such as lifechurch are appealing to people, which explains their success. it's not wrong wrong for a church to appeal to people, however i don't believe that churches that focus on apealling to people are appealing to god.

agree to disagree... no offense, but it's just an excuse to back away from an argument you can't defend. -M

[metro]

Agree to Disagree. Yes I can defend, it's a matter if you agree, just like you can defend and I don't agree. So anyways back to topic (now ignoring lifechurch skeptics as it gets us nowhere) osupa or anyone else, any word on the NW OKC Campus or the other out of state campus?

[Faith]

Hi everyone! I have to say it has been a while since I have revisted this thread. When I started the thread I was generally asking people's opinions of Life Church because my family was looking for a church to attend near our new home. I am happy to say that this last Sunday we FINALLY went to Life Church. I am also pleased to say that we loved it there. My children had a great time. It wasn't just all play for them because my oldest told me what he had learned about King David. Honestly, I don't understand how anyone can criticize Life Church's mission. They are reaching out to thousands of people and helping them become better followers of Christ. Why do people on here feel the need to criticize their mission? What is it that they have done so wrong?

By the way the 10th location is in either Nashville or Memphis. I can't remember which one of the two it was.

[metro]

okcgoddess, glad to hear your family enjoyed it and felt like you fit in. Also on a side note I learned the new campus will be in Nashville.

[Patrick]

To continue the discussion that's ongoing here, I'd like to pose a question: if LifeChurch.tv suddenly stopped offering the band at it's services, the coffee shop, the light shows, etc, would those coming now keep coming? If the answer is no, then that tells us they're simply there to be entertained, and not to worship God.

Why do we need a $250,000 light system to worship God? Why do we need a $350,000 sound system to worship God?

I'm not against contemporary worship, but I question whether people are being solely entertained or are growing in faith. It's extremely hard to grow deep in the faith when one is so fixated on the next light show, or the sound of the new drum set, or the beat of the rhythm. It's easy for one to become lost in all of the hubub.

I've found in my life that the times I grow most are in fact the quiet times I spend with God, on my knees crying out to Him, and reading His word. The rest is simply going through the religious motions.

I think LifeChurch.tv is making a huge mistake by watering down their services, taking their focus away from discipleship and more on entertainment. The way to really reach people is not through cool lights, great sounds, etc. It's by working with them one on one in personal Bible Study. Sure, LifeChurch.tv has Life Groups, but unlike most churches, they've really lost that sense of discipleship without having Sunday Bible Study Classes and the like.

Now, from my own personal experience. My father-in-law is one of the older members of LifeChurch.tv and has been going there for several years. He is currently awaiting a liver transplant. We wanted to host a benefit concert for him at one of the campuses and we were denied. The church told us that if they allowed us to use their facility, they'd have to let everyone use their facility for charitable means. Last I checked, isn't the whole purpose of the building to serve your members and to serve the community around you. But, we might've interrupted their rock show or hurt one of their precious spot lights. Oh my.

I think LifeChurch.tv is more focused on putting on a good show than actually serving.

Sure, they may be serving those in New Orleans, but I think it's pretty sad they can do that but can't even serve one of their own members whose paying the light bills.

[Midtowner]

There ya go Patrick. That's pretty much what I've been saying all along.

[metro]

I'd have to say absolutely the majority of people would show if they took away the lights and sound and the band. Would some not show up, yes, but that can be said with any church for one reason or the other, maybe it's the style of preaching or the pastor or whatever. I've been going there for 7-8 years now, almost since it's inception (10 years). When I started going the church was a lot smaller although still a fastly growing church, they didn't have flashy lights, band, etc. and yet it still grew by leaps and bounds, why? because they are real with people, they accept people for who they are and where they are in life unlike many churches who "stereotype" or act "holier than thou".

On several occasions I still go to life to grow personally and spiritually with God and just for the excellent teaching, and I occasionally miss the praise and worship or "band" as some call it. The real issue is skeptics, cynics, critics if you will, religion since the beginning of time and until the end of time has and will always be a hotly debated issue. "I'm right your wrong, you're right I'm wrong" type arguments are pointless. I think that in no matter what the issue, religion, business, politics, etc. people are critical of success and Lifechurch.tv has achieved success and many want it to fail. People intentionally try to look for the flaw or something wrong in success, and guess what, no one is perfect, not even you or I. Jesus calls us to add to the church DAILY, I can honestly say Lifechurch.tv has done that, I can't say that for all churches. I hope you can learn to love me and my church because we'll be in heaven with you regardless of your viewpoints. If we can't get along on earth, how will we ever get along in heaven?

As far as your friend who had the sickness, I am sorry to hear that and will keep him in our prayers. I am positive that if he is in financial, physical, or emotional need, Lifechurch will do the best of their abilities to help him out. Lifechurch is one of the few churches I know that says before any offering if you are an adult in need of food, clothing, or shelter to take money directly out of the offering. They also have Mercy ministries and over 200 more ministries that can help whomever out in whatever their need may be. I can understand that they would have to say no to hold a benefit concert because of the number of requests they receive for various things. As Craig says " you have to say know to some good things to hold out for even greater things". Yes, helping your friend out is good and I wish you could do that, but with tens of thousands of people being touched by the church in just one weekend, it would be hard to accomodate everyone's preferences or requests.

Is lifechurch.tv or myself always right, not hardly. But we're not perfect and neither is anyone else. I hope and pray we can all learn to love each other dispite our disagreements on this topic. And hey, if you open your eyes and ears up and not shut or move them in skepticism, you might even learn something from lifechurch.tv or one of it's messages that you can take with you.

[Martin]

I hope you can learn to love me and my church because we'll be in heaven with you regardless of your viewpoints.

that's the thing with me... i don't think that the things lifechurch teaches are consistent with what scripture would have us do. while lifechurch embraces the notion that we should add to the church daily, which is true and noble, it does so at the expense of scriptural truth. by teaching things that contradict scripture, i think that the salvation of many who attend lifechurch is in jeopardy. so... we may not be in heaven together, after all... i want to make sure that we are. that's what motivates my comments, not jealousy or a desire to appear 'holier than thou.'

i'm curious as to what you actually believe. let me pose some questions. use scripture where you can so that we don't devolve into an 'i'm right, you're wrong' situation... ask anything of me, if you want. -M

Did God give us a choice as to what church we could belong to?

Are we part of this world or are we to be separate in faith and worship?

What is faith?

What must I do to be saved? (i especially want to see scripture on this one)

What is the Lord’s Supper?

Are women allowed to preach, teach or lead songs when men are present?

Some churches use instrumental music in worship. Do you? Why or why not?

[metro]

mmm, as I mentioned this will be a neverending debate. If you'd like to start a faith/religion/beliefs debate, let's start a separate thread please.

[Martin]

it may be neverending, but being able to explain and defend your faith is worthwhile isn't it? besides, i'm asking about your faith as a member of lifechurch and not about people's faith in general. therefore it seems applicable to this thread... as a member of lifechurch can you explain what you believe to me? -M

[zgilliam]

mmm, the corporate beliefs of LifeChurch.tv as a whole are listed on their website at http://www.lifechurch.tv/p/117/Default.aspx. Of course, every believer has a right to disagree with the non-essentials of our faith, but this is the "official" statement of belief for the church.

I'm a newcomer to the forum, so I just read the entire 13 page thread. (Yes, I need a hobby...) But anyway, someone asked about financial records several posts earlier and I just happened to run across them on their site the other day. http://www.lifechurch.tv/p/468/Default.aspx

[Midtowner]

Wow zg, am I reading that Lifechurch "gave" a whopping $20,000 out of a 20 million dollar budget to charity? Now that is generosity!

[Keith]

Wow zg, am I reading that Lifechurch "gave" a whopping $20,000 out of a 20 million dollar budget to charity? Now that is generosity!

You are correct. That is generosity....although I know you were being very sarcasticl. That's better than what most people give their church....nothing.

[Midtowner]

Life asks for a 10% tithe, does it not? In turn it gives a whopping 1% to a charity which in turn might even give the money back.

Yeah, that's definitely generosity.

[Martin]

thanks for the links, zgilliam. i'd seen the one about core values, but never saw the financial report.

since lifechurch is incorporated, it has to produce these financial reports by law. the church that i attend is incorporated for tax purposes as well and produces a similar report annually. i'm not sure where the $20k figure comes from. according to the report, lifechurch gave $1.4M in 2005 under the heading, 'missions and compassion.' Therefore, for every $1 spent, lifechurch spent $0.07 on missions and charitable causes. two things are interesting about this to me:

first, unlike my congregation, missions and charity aren't separated. on our report, we separate benevolence and each mission that we support. from this report, i can't tell how much of that money went to support local need and how much went to support a missionary's salary... or who/where that missionary is. furthermore, we disclose how much our minister's make. this report combines pastoral leadership and campus operations into a $5.5M figure. it's hard to tell exactly where the money is going.

second, i find it interesting that $2.9M is spent on experiences and marketing. lifechurch spends twice as much money on music, lights, sound and advertising than it does on missions and compassion.

-M

EDIT:

i stumbled onto one more thing looking at the support staff section of the site. zgilliam, it appears that you are an employee of lifechurch since the name under 'media distribution' pretty closely resembles the username you've chosen here. given that, do you have anything to add to the discussion?