UPS and 'gay' Boy Scouts

[bucktalk]

I read this week that UPS will no longer contribute to the Boy Scouts of America until they include gay boys/leaders into the scouting organization. I assume other large corporations won't contribute to gay organizations unless they allow Christians to be a part of their organization. Yeah, right.

[kelroy55]

I know several gay folks and 90% of them are Christians so not sure what your point is.

[bucktalk]

Let me put it this way - should those who were in favor of Chick fil A's stand on traditional marriage - become incensed with UPS and boycott them and protest at their locations?

[bucktalk]

I know several gay folks and 90% of them are Christians so not sure what your point is.

From my perspective and understanding of scripture I see it as being unlikely and most likely impossible to be a 'gay Christian'. I know others will argue this but is simply my opinion.

[Pete]

I read this week that UPS will no longer contribute to the Boy Scouts of America until they include gay boys/leaders into the scouting organization. I assume other large corporations won't contribute to gay organizations unless they allow Christians to be a part of their organization. Yeah, right.

Can you name an organization that UPS or other big business contributes to that has an open and stated policy of refusing Christians?

[kelroy55]

From my perspective and understanding of scripture I see it as being unlikely and most likely impossible to be a 'gay Christian'. I know others will argue this but is simply my opinion.

Why is that?

[Spartan]

Oh wow look, Pete is going to protect the OP from the fallout of his own views. It's just a big ol' conspiracy that's out to get you Christians, isn't it?

I am so tired of people whose social views are stuck in the 1950s being coddled and not forced to modernize like the rest of us were. You can not be a part of the real world with these views, I am sorry. That's why UPS is distancing itself from the Boy Scouts, and I say that as someone that made Eagle at 16 and then wanted nothing else to do with them. Horrible, horrible organization.

By the way half of the adult leaders in the organization have Elton John beat for nelly...

[Pete]

You can disagree without calling someone names, Spartan.

[ThomPaine]

From my perspective and understanding of scripture I see it as being unlikely and most likely impossible to be a 'gay Christian'. I know others will argue this but is simply my opinion.

Perfect example of why I have distanced myself from organized religion... Whatever happened to "hate the sin, love the sinner" or "I'm not perfect, just forgiven"? I assume you allow alcoholics, tax cheats, thieves, and spouse abusers in your church, why would you preclude gay people from the Christian faith? (They are not in the same category by the way, just trying to illustrate a point.)

You need to do a little more reading of the scriptures my friend.

[Of Sound Mind]

Oh wow look, Pete is going to protect the OP from the fallout of his own views.

Ummmm... unless you're being sarcastic, I didn't see that at all. Oversensitive much?

[venture]

I read this week that UPS will no longer contribute to the Boy Scouts of America until they include gay boys/leaders into the scouting organization. I assume other large corporations won't contribute to gay organizations unless they allow Christians to be a part of their organization. Yeah, right.

/facepalm

Please list these gay organizations that don't allow Christians.

Let me put it this way - should those who were in favor of Chick fil A's stand on traditional marriage - become incensed with UPS and boycott them and protest at their locations?

I think the bigger issue here is where do you draw the line on pushing a single view of faith and discriminating against a set group of people. I will be the first to say Marriage is a religious sacrament (being Catholic) and has its history tied to the Church. I also fully support the ability for gay couples to share similar legal privileges and medical benefits. Everyone knows my stance now. No government entity should have anything to do with Marriage...at all. If the State/Govt wants to join two people in a similar contract, it should be strictly and only a Civil Union. If you want a marriage, you can go to your place of worship for that (if they approve) but the two are separate. One you are joining in the eyes of the State, the other in the eyes of God. Considering the high number of people that get divorced over and over again, this would probably be best for them.

The stance Chick Fil A took can be argued appropriate or inappropriate. I would more so look at the company's internal benefits policy to see if they will provide benefits to same sex domestic partners or if it is an all or nothing setting. If it doesn't include them, then the workers have a choice to find a company that does (nearly every Fortune 500 or even 1000 will have the benefits).

The stand by UPS is one that is refusing to support/donate to a non-profit organization that openly discriminates against a group of people. That discrimination in most cases is rooted in religious beliefs. UPS is a publicly traded company, not a private company like Chick Fil A, and they are choosing to no longer support an organization that is using religious beliefs to formulate its membership requirements. I don't really see the problem here when the company likely wants to stay independent of any discrimination.

[Dubya61]

... and I say that as someone that made Eagle at 16 and then wanted nothing else to do with them. Horrible, horrible organization.

By the way half of the adult leaders in the organization have Elton John beat for nelly...

I think all organizations with more than two members are probably not living up to their charter ideals in every respect. I think the BSA ideals are fantastic, but as an organization are unfortunately having to face the fact that they may be doing things counter to those ideals. I think the GSUSA ideals are fantastic, but they are an organization with more than two members and I'm sure that I could find one or more examples in that membership of something I don't like. I think the various political parties' ideals are great, but ... get the picture? Just because there are people in an organization that you don't agree with doesn't make it a horrible organization. Further, covering up sex scandals is indeed repugnant, but that doesn't make it a horrible organization. It makes it an organization that is being mismanaged -- stupidly mismanaged -- OK, maybe THAT makes them a horrible organization, but I wouldn't see it dismantled for that. They're going to have to take all the appropriate heat for that and hopefully make some changes to their management.
... and are you saying that half of all the adult leaders are closet gays? I'm sure you're wrong, unless that happens to be the statistic for the rest of the populace.

[Jesseda]

I never thought I would live to read a story about, Gays,Christians,BoyScouts,Chick-fil-a and UPS all rolled up into a thread. Wow

[OKCisOK4me]

Man, this thread is flaming!

[HewenttoJared]

I read this week that UPS will no longer contribute to the Boy Scouts of America until they include gay boys/leaders into the scouting organization. I assume other large corporations won't contribute to gay organizations unless they allow Christians to be a part of their organization. Yeah, right.

Who bans Christians? lol

[jedicurt]

Who bans Christians? lol

Hell??? but only good christians

[Spartan]

I think all organizations with more than two members are probably not living up to their charter ideals in every respect. I think the BSA ideals are fantastic, but as an organization are unfortunately having to face the fact that they may be doing things counter to those ideals. I think the GSUSA ideals are fantastic, but they are an organization with more than two members and I'm sure that I could find one or more examples in that membership of something I don't like. I think the various political parties' ideals are great, but ... get the picture? Just because there are people in an organization that you don't agree with doesn't make it a horrible organization. Further, covering up sex scandals is indeed repugnant, but that doesn't make it a horrible organization. It makes it an organization that is being mismanaged -- stupidly mismanaged -- OK, maybe THAT makes them a horrible organization, but I wouldn't see it dismantled for that. They're going to have to take all the appropriate heat for that and hopefully make some changes to their management.
... and are you saying that half of all the adult leaders are closet gays? I'm sure you're wrong, unless that happens to be the statistic for the rest of the populace.

I'm not just talking about the sex scandals, which are repugnant, and also a mere symptom of forcing an honest discussion about sexuality underground. I was forced into the Boy Scouts by my family and wasn't particularly into it because most of the Troop were neanderthals who were either from extremely backwards families OR bad home situations whose parents just needed a place to dump the kids off.

Most kids I knew there learned how to cuss and just be general rednecks in the Boy Scouts. I was pretty repulsed by all of that, so I just wanted it to be done with ASAP. And no, I truly believe there is a much, much higher preponderance of homosexuals who are closeted in the Boy Scouts than in normal society. At least that was my experience. There were some strange individuals in every Troop I ever saw. Worse yet, I saw an amazing amount of bullying going on, not just toward effeminate kids, but also toward physically and (especially) mentally handicapped kids.

My experience is that the Boy Scouts is a truly horrific organization, and I know I'm playing Don Quixote to an extent, but it's hard for me to bite my tongue when people continue to worship the good ole Boy Scouts. I know that my kids will NEVER be allowed to be a part of anything like that. I truly do hope they learn the value of the outdoors and civic values we hold near and dear, but the BS structure is rotten and the organization needs to go away.

[PennyQuilts]

Have they changed the rules to allow women to be scout leaders? I was a cub scout den mother in the 80's but they wouldn't let me continue for the webeloes when my son got older. They said it had to be a man.

[PennyQuilts]

I'm not just talking about the sex scandals, which are repugnant, and also a mere symptom of forcing an honest discussion about sexuality underground. I was forced into the Boy Scouts by my family and wasn't particularly into it because most of the Troop were neanderthals who were either from extremely backwards families OR bad home situations whose parents just needed a place to dump the kids off.

Most kids I knew there learned how to cuss and just be general rednecks in the Boy Scouts. I was pretty repulsed by all of that, so I just wanted it to be done with ASAP. And no, I truly believe there is a much, much higher preponderance of homosexuals who are closeted in the Boy Scouts than in normal society. At least that was my experience. There were some strange individuals in every Troop I ever saw. Worse yet, I saw an amazing amount of bullying going on, not just toward effeminate kids, but also toward physically and (especially) mentally handicapped kids.

My experience is that the Boy Scouts is a truly horrific organization, and I know I'm playing Don Quixote to an extent, but it's hard for me to bite my tongue when people continue to worship the good ole Boy Scouts. I know that my kids will NEVER be allowed to be a part of anything like that. I truly do hope they learn the value of the outdoors and civic values we hold near and dear, but the BS structure is rotten and the organization needs to go away.

Spartan, I hate to go there but in all honestly, I saw a lot of questionable characters in the scouts, too. I also so some wonderful male leaders - don't think I didn't. I think the organization, itself, is well intended and terrific, usually. But child predators (I don't mean your generic homosexual) tend to flock to organizations that give them access to young children and, sadly, a lot of single moms want to find male mentors/father figures for their sons and trust too much and too easily. You see a lot of these abominations involved with organizations that have access to young children and confused teens. Young girls are often molested by neighbors and family members but I've seen lots of young boys/young men molested/seduced by the very people their mother handed them over to with the best of intentions. I think it is because single moms sometimes have a tendency to seek out adult males to fill the gap left by an absentee dad. Tragic.

[Snowman]

Hell??? but only good christians

Probably not an outright ban and more of a second option.

[Spartan]

Spartan, I hate to go there but in all honestly, I saw a lot of questionable characters in the scouts, too. I also so some wonderful male leaders - don't think I didn't. I think the organization, itself, is well intended and terrific, usually. But child predators (I don't mean your generic homosexual) tend to flock to organizations that give them access to young children and, sadly, a lot of single moms want to find male mentors/father figures for their sons and trust too much and too easily. You see a lot of these abominations involved with organizations that have access to young children and confused teens. Young girls are often molested by neighbors and family members but I've seen lots of young boys/young men molested/seduced by the very people their mother handed them over to with the best of intentions. I think it is because single moms sometimes have a tendency to seek out adult males to fill the gap left by an absentee dad. Tragic.

Can't disagree with this...

[Jim Kyle]

Have they changed the rules to allow women to be scout leaders? I was a cub scout den mother in the 80's but they wouldn't let me continue for the webeloes when my son got older. They said it had to be a man.

My own scouting experience was only as a Cub and it was pre-WW2 to boot. My parents would not let me have anything to do with the BSA during the war years when I was eligible, because in the area of Southern California where we lived at the time, they said that the organization appeared to be unduly influenced by the Russian social experiment. (Their words were considerably stronger, even McCarthyesque.)

When my own sons came to the age of becoming interested in Cub Scouting, though, we looked into the possibility of becoming involved with the OKC scouting movement. I attended an initial briefing for fathers who shared that interest -- and came away appalled at the extreme sexist views expressed by the official BSA folk conducting the meeting. (The fact that only fathers were allowed to attend should have warned me, I suppose.) They made absolutely no bones about their motive being to eliminate all tendencies to treat females as equals. While I'm no rabid supporter of the National Organization of Women and the feminist activism of the early 60s (for that's when all this happened), I did (and still do) believe that people should be treated equally without regard to race or sex. The attitude of the scouting officials at that briefing soured me, permanently, on the BSA and all of its associated organizations. My sons grew to maturity without taking part. So did my grandchildren.

I do believe that, as a private organization, the organization has every right to make any rules it wants -- even if those rules go against the twelve points they consider supreme. However, I don't have to associate with, or support, them in any way. Neither does UPS.

[NoOkie]

My own scouting experience was only as a Cub and it was pre-WW2 to boot. My parents would not let me have anything to do with the BSA during the war years when I was eligible, because in the area of Southern California where we lived at the time, they said that the organization appeared to be unduly influenced by the Russian social experiment. (Their words were considerably stronger, even McCarthyesque.)

When my own sons came to the age of becoming interested in Cub Scouting, though, we looked into the possibility of becoming involved with the OKC scouting movement. I attended an initial briefing for fathers who shared that interest -- and came away appalled at the extreme sexist views expressed by the official BSA folk conducting the meeting. (The fact that only fathers were allowed to attend should have warned me, I suppose.) They made absolutely no bones about their motive being to eliminate all tendencies to treat females as equals. While I'm no rabid supporter of the National Organization of Women and the feminist activism of the early 60s (for that's when all this happened), I did (and still do) believe that people should be treated equally without regard to race or sex. The attitude of the scouting officials at that briefing soured me, permanently, on the BSA and all of its associated organizations. My sons grew to maturity without taking part. So did my grandchildren.

I do believe that, as a private organization, the organization has every right to make any rules it wants -- even if those rules go against the twelve points they consider supreme. However, I don't have to associate with, or support, them in any way. Neither does UPS.

I find this and Spartan's experiences to be fascinating. I got up to Webelo before I quit scouting in the 90's. I quit because my Troop leader left and the new guy was boring. There was a lot of focus on exposure to different things and new skills. Not as much out door stuff as I would have expected, but lots of trips to different kinds of businesses and museums and such. And the stupid Pinewood Derby cars. There was some bullying and general rednecky behavior among the scouts, but that's to be expected in semi-rural Georgia and it was at about the same level as at school. Maybe it was just the era, but I never heard anything about "the gays", atheists or evil feminists.

I'm of really mixed emotions about the BSA. My step sons are both members of a scout troop in Missouri. The troop is a special needs one, as one of the kids has some serious anger/behavioral issues. From talking to them about it and observing their behavior, I've decided that their membership in scouts has been a positive thing for both of them. I discussed the recent pedophilia documents, anti-gay stuff and the atheist rules(Their father is at least nominally a person of faith, their mother and I are not, the kids are on the fence and figuring out their own beliefs) and he had come to the conclusion that the national BSA organization can be pretty ****ty at times, but individual troop leaders can make it a great experience with a lot of value. On the flip side, bad troop leaders can make it a pretty horrible thing, too.

[kevinpate]

Couple of points ...

UPS Foundation
UPS Foundation decided to end the grants it was previously awarding in connection with Scouting. The grant funds in 2011 reached about 85,000.
If I understand correctly, this decision is a result of deciding continuing to award such grants would be inconsistent with their own internal policy stance, which is, like many public and private companies, more inclusive and diverse than the BSA national policy. Future eligibility for grants would be only to organizations who have non-discrimination position regarding several areas, including sexual orientation. Thus, grants will no longer go to BSA or any other organization which can not meet that stance. In short, they have settled on their talk, and now they are walking the walk. It's a very reasonable position to implement in light of their stated policies. The UPS Foundation is neither the first nor the last to align their external actions with their internal actions.

Female Leadership in BSA
There is no leadership role today which excludes an applicant based on gender. The change can about more slowly than it likely should have, but it did come about. That said, even just a decade or so ago there were still some folks who did try unofficially to impede the involvement of women in some roles, for their own sexist reasons.

When my eldest was at his third year of summer camp, I went along as an extra adult. His troop always nominated an asst. scoutmaster as the camp week Scoutmaster. That year, for the second year, the camp SM was the same female as the prior year. She was the primary adult working with the lads on registration, logistics, transport, etc. in the weeks leading up to camp, and the go to adult when camp staff adults needed to interact with the troop at camp. One day toward the end of the week, a chap from another unit and I were talking. He expressed a less than pleased surprise, as did one or two others nearby, that even with men at camp, we had a female SM. It was a basic, what's wrong with you guys that this could even be possible.

I looked at him and the others, several of whom make me look tiny, no minor feat, and noted with a bit of pride that our camp SM was an avid outdoor person, who also happened to be highly organized, had not only the time but the willingness and energy to deal with all the boring claptrap, pre-camp and during camp, that someone had to mess with, was a fantastic Scouter, mother and friend to the lads and the adults who, by the way, backpacks 14'rs more summers than not for the fun of it and could not only out hike, out think, out care, out play and leave you huffing and puffing in her dust, she could double back, render first aid and keep their unfit sexists arses alive until help arrived, and still get on to where she was going, and be in a right decent mood when she got there. And with that, before I let myself be more annoyed than amused, I wished them well and just went on with my day. I admit it. I am not always kind to fools.

While I was active, I was fortunate to interact with Scouting leaders, pro and volunteer alike, from many areas of the country. Some were unit leaders, some were more involved at the district, council and/or national levels. I've known many interesting folk, male and female alike in Scouting, pro or volunteer. Still do, even though my activity level is more friend and interested observer these days.

[Jim Kyle]

There is no leadership role today which excludes an applicant based on gender. The change can about more slowly than it likely should have, but it did come about. That said, even just a decade or so ago there were still some folks who did try unofficially to impede the involvement of women in some roles, for their own sexist reasons.

I'm glad to know that the organization at its highest levels has abandoned the sexist attitudes that so totally soured me. As I said, my experience with it was half a century ago.

Thanks for bringing us up to date!