Holiday Inn Express

[Dan]

I don't think so. Fairly sure that lot is either Federal Corp or belongs to the owner of the quonset hut to the east of it. Actually, I feel pretty certain it is Federal Corp.

Correct. That is Federal's employee parking lot.

[GaryOKC6]

Also, Spaghetti Warehouse folks might see that they already have similar potential but already have a building that just needs work.

I have always thought that the Spaghetti Wharehouse would make a great hotel and still allow the restaurant to operate. Actually the restaurant and bar would compliment the hotel.

[Spartan]

That space really should become apartments. I've heard rumors that Spaghetti Warehouse could close any day allowing the building to be redeveloped, but those rumors have persisted for years now :/

[HangryHippo]

That space really should become apartments. I've heard rumors that Spaghetti Warehouse could close any day allowing the building to be redeveloped, but those rumors have persisted for years now :/

I like Spaghetti Warehouse as I've made many fond memories in that space so I would hate for it to close. But the spaces above would make terrific apartments/housing.

[jedicurt]

i like this a lot... i hope it turns out this well when all is said and done

[Rover]

It's great to have so many hotel in process but it's time we get one or two that are more upscale.

Enough with these HVAC-through-the-wall projects.

Just wish these developers would realize that the lifetime costs are actually less with better mechanical systems. Operational costs are less and the value of the building is increased, not to mention the value as an ongoing business should they decide to flip it. It doesn't have to negatively affect the room rates.

[Spartan]

I like Spaghetti Warehouse as I've made many fond memories in that space so I would hate for it to close. But the spaces above would make terrific apartments/housing.

I've never been to tell you the truth, as long as I've been an OKCer and with Spaghetti Warehouse being there probably my whole life... but it certainly would be a loss.. and an opportunity for a void.

[CaptDave]

Just wish these developers would realize that the lifetime costs are actually less with better mechanical systems. Operational costs are less and the value of the building is increased, not to mention the value as an ongoing business should they decide to flip it. It doesn't have to negatively affect the room rates.

I was hoping you would comment on that Rover. Are the initial construction costs so much lower for through the wall to make it an easy decision for most developers? Is it an indicator the developer is likely looking to build and sell in a short time frame? The design of the new HIE is extremely nice and I hope they build it to a standard commensurate to the design.

[Pete]

The renderings for this project (as well as the under construction Homewood Suites) really minimize the through-the-wall HVAC units but they are more obvious in real life and are the commercial equivalent of window a/c units.

It may be time for the Bricktown & Downtown design review committees draw the line on this practice.

[sroberts24]

That is my only complaint with this design, but besides that this is so much better than anything we have seen proposed for Bricktown.

[Rover]

I was hoping you would comment on that Rover. Are the initial construction costs so much lower for through the wall to make it an easy decision for most developers? Is it an indicator the developer is likely looking to build and sell in a short time frame? The design of the new HIE is extremely nice and I hope they build it to a standard commensurate to the design.

Yes, through the wall is less cost on the construction. However, they are less efficient and lose the effect of building "diversity". Central systems almost always are operationally more efficient. Also, through the wall units can be replaced quickly by low-low tech maintenance people. In all, their lives are short and their efficiency deteriorates rapidly.

Another problem for window or through the wall is the noise both inside and outside the room. On a hot day on the exterior of a motel/hotel with these units all running, the street side noise can be very high. In a city where there is alot of street noise, etc. it may not be a problem. Also, if they have direct ventillation through the units into the room, all the exhaust, etc. from the street is pulled into the building. As well, condensation removal can be a problem resulting in the staining of exteriors under the units where the condensation drips. And, as the building ages, gaps between the unit sleeve and building hole can develop leading to unwanted infiltration.

PTACs are not actual size requirement specific, but off the shelf and generally sized. This can result in lower dehumidification, more cycling, and shorter unit life.

Also, if not designed right, there is little or no ventilation or air treatment in the corridors creating cold or hot and stuffy hallways, etc.

All in all it is cheap, but not good.

As for the idea of flipping... hotels are generally sold as an ongoing business, not necessarily as real estate unless the owner isn't the operator. When operational costs are lower and net profits are higher as a result, the value of the ongoing business goes up (multiple of net income). So, the initial savings can be fools gold.

As one developer of hotels told me, inns with through the wall units (PTACs) are motels not hotels. They are just thought of as sub-standard.

By the way, two great alternative products and systems are manufactured right here in OKC. International Environmental (LSB) and ClimateMaster (LSB) are two of the leading hotel equipment suppliers in the world and both are dominant in their product lines. They should be used in more hotels here.

[CaptDave]

Thank you Rover. I thought that was likely the case. I wonder if design review entities typically consider those aspects of the building design. The street noise alone should be a concern to the Bricktown Associations.

[Pete]

You would think the a/c would be much more expensive to operate in Oklahoma's scorching summers.

Also, they have to have centralized units for common areas and hallways.

[Rover]

You would think the a/c would be much more expensive to operate in Oklahoma's scorching summers.

Also, they have to have centralized units for common areas and hallways.

They are MUCH more expensive to operate per ton. Also, with the dust, etc. in the air here, the condensers get dirty quickly and that decreases efficiency quickly. Because you have 200 separate units on a building like this, cleaning is almost never done.

And, the problem isn't just summer. If there is no central system, heat pumps are used and auxiliary electric resistance heat strips are included. This is a very inefficient way to handle the cold.

It is time the standards be set higher downtown.

BTW, when we get into the discussions about "quality construction" on this forum, this is the kind of thing I am talking about that indicates a lack of quality and sustaining construction. There are a million ways to cheapen construction that most people have no idea about unless they are in the business. Developers slap a little granite on some counters and people think it is quality construction. We have to quit settling for construction that is destined to be junk in 20-30 years or downtown will deteriorate as fast as it is rising. Thankfully Devon and SR get it. I hope others follow, particularly on the residential and hospitality side.

[Pete]

This is also something that is almost impossible to upgrade later.

Even if you wanted to completely gut a building and start over (which wouldn't happen for decades), the floors heights aren't configured to route duct work to rooms.

So, once this choice is made it's almost a forever decision. Even with cheap facades like EIFS and other cost-cutting moves, there are better upgrade options down the road.

[LakeEffect]

The renderings for this project (as well as the under construction Homewood Suites) really minimize the through-the-wall HVAC units but they are more obvious in real life and are the commercial equivalent of window a/c units.

It may be time for the Bricktown & Downtown design review committees draw the line on this practice.

I don't think the design review committees should have this under their purview. This should be a building code modification.

[Pete]

I don't think the design review committees should have this under their purview. This should be a building code modification.

Is the building code differentiated by districts?

Because there are some areas (like S. Meridian and along Interstates) where this type of HVAC makes sense.

[CaptDave]

I was thinking design review may have an appropriate role in locations such as this becuse of the impact the mechanical systems will have in the street environment. As stated by other posters, the noise during summer will be significant and magnified by reflections off surrounding buildings. Just another illustration of the complexity of developing properties like this, but I think OKC is moving in the right direction with regard to its review process.

[LordGerald]

Thank you Rover. I thought that was likely the case. I wonder if design review entities typically consider those aspects of the building design. The street noise alone should be a concern to the Bricktown Associations.

I went to the majority of the BT Design Committee meetings when this project was first reviewed several years ago, and the subject of the external H/AC units was a primary concern (of the committee), second only to retaining the brick exterior.

[Rover]

It is a design consideration on so many levels....appearance, sustainability, noise, quality of construction, etc.

How in the world we ever let the hotel by the arena go with ptac units is baffling.

By the way, the owner has the option to use the better systems...it is not dictated by the franchiser/brand. The better brands may prohibit ptac units, but the cheaper limited service brands generally allow them. This is another reason why I keep commenting that we don't want all that many limited service brands unless the owners enforce their own quality requirements.

[jbrown84]

Huge improvement!! It's like the historic warehouses, but with modern touches.

[OKCisOK4me]

That space really should become apartments. I've heard rumors that Spaghetti Warehouse could close any day allowing the building to be redeveloped, but those rumors have persisted for years now :/

Same goes for the floors above City Walk. I know there was a plan at one time or another (pre 2009 crash) that called for those floors to be turned into lofts. I'd like to see that project persued again.

[LakeEffect]

Same goes for the floors above City Walk. I know there was a plan at one time or another (pre 2009 crash) that called for those floors to be turned into lofts. I'd like to see that project persued again.

The continual complaint from the owners/potential developers is that a second staircase would be required by code if it was renovated. The owners/developers think that they would have to build it out back due to existing conditions (the restaurant being part of that). The alley out back is ROW and extends to the building, so they'd have to get permission to close it, something they've been unwilling to do. The explanation seems flimsy at best, but I've heard it multiple times.

This is where education and getting to know people helps. If more owners shared information with each other, which includes renovation techniques, I think Bricktown would develop faster. The property owners need to know each other and communicate. Look at Midtown and Auto Alley. They are both newer than Bricktown but have seen much more positive momentum in rehabilitation, and I think it's mainly due to owners/developers sharing ideas and talking. /sermon

[OKCisOK4me]

^^true that^^

[Rover]

It helps a lot that we now have more contractors familiar with the unique challenges of rehab and retrofits, not to mention more architects. The more experience they have the more comfortable they become with their bids and they can bid closer to reality. When they haven't done much of it they tend to bid high to cover the risk they perceive. More experience means they get more comfortable and lower the premium for risk. And more suppliers mean more bidders and more competitive costs.