Scissortail Park

[HangryHippo]

I'm not sure I like any of the designs. Of course it's hard to tell given the lack of detail in these pics. I needs me some artistic renderings, with pictures of people walking by trees and stuff. I do like the big lake though.

Agree 100%.

[CaptDave]

Still no way for people living next to the park to get into the park. The Convention Center has better access than residents living 40 feet away.

Huh?
Step 1 - Walk across street.
Step 2 - Step onto grass.
Step 3 - Pass through tree line with canopy of leaves overhead.
Done - you are now in the park.



I think there will be more east-west paths in the final design. I think some decomposed granite pathways would be nice without detracting from the more natural areas. I think it is going to be great once complete - many of us had doubts about Bicentennial Park and it came out very nice.

[Bellaboo]

Isn't this the same design group that did the revamp on the MBG ? If it is, then i'd say it'll turn out well.

[Snowman]

Well even though a park is generally 'open space'. You still need to define that space. The trees create a streetwall in lieu of buildings. See how they are used in the Devon area and MBG area along the sidewalk to define the street space and to create an enclosed park space on the other side.

A streetwall could be created with trees without being an evenly spaced single row though

[catch22]

A streetwall could be created with trees without being an evenly spaced single row though

The thing that makes urban environments comfortable is the uniformity. You can only define space if it's uniform. When you see trees in a straight line but not spaced evenly, it doesn't signal "safe" in the brain. You don't really see a wall. You see a row of trees.

If they are evenly spaced you see a wall because it is uniform. You can have breaks in the walls ("doorways" if you will) if you are concerned about access (I am). We should have breaks in the "wall" at the terminating crossing streets to extend the street "virtually" through the wall and into the park. Pedestrians on the crossing streets will continue to walk toward the park and enter the park on the grid because of the break in the trees. People who want to walk on the sidewalk and not enter the park will have a wall separating them from the park. They will not feel like they are in the open Oklahoma prairie. The people in the park will have the open prairie feel with a row of trees separating them from the stress of life in the urban environment.

[Just the facts]

One of the hardest things to do is sit at ground level in an urban environment that makes you feel comfortable and then try to figure out why it makes you feel that way. As catch22 said, the comfort comes from the repetition.

[Snowman]

The thing that makes urban environments comfortable is the uniformity. You can only define space if it's uniform. When you see trees in a straight line but not spaced evenly, it doesn't signal "safe" in the brain. You don't really see a wall. You see a row of trees.

If they are evenly spaced you see a wall because it is uniform. You can have breaks in the walls ("doorways" if you will) if you are concerned about access (I am). We should have breaks in the "wall" at the terminating crossing streets to extend the street "virtually" through the wall and into the park. Pedestrians on the crossing streets will continue to walk toward the park and enter the park on the grid because of the break in the trees. People who want to walk on the sidewalk and not enter the park will have a wall separating them from the park. They will not feel like they are in the open Oklahoma prairie. The people in the park will have the open prairie feel with a row of trees separating them from the stress of life in the urban environment.

I have seen it done nicely not evenly spaced by varying the type of trees along the street so they still fill above to a similar density overhead and becoming more varied in placement to the interior of the park from there, which was useful in having some variety in feel of spaces along long distance it covered, we have 2500 feet that could end up feeling over homogenized. However the street side being strait is not as much my issue as the unnatural lines on the interior which reaches large distances in from both the east side and depending on the model the north side.

[Just the facts]

Huh?
Step 1 - Walk across street.
Step 2 - Step onto grass.
Step 3 - Pass through tree line with canopy of leaves overhead.
Done - you are now in the park.



I think there will be more east-west paths in the final design. I think some decomposed granite pathways would be nice without detracting from the more natural areas. I think it is going to be great once complete - many of us had doubts about Bicentennial Park and it came out very nice.

I know you said that first part to be funny but there is no doubt in my mind that someone is reading that and actually agreeing with it. So here are the reasons why that isn't a good idea.

1) The elderly don't need to be cutting through the bushes
2) Impossible to push a stroller through
3) Hard to bike through
4) Isn't good for the plants, grass, and trees
5) People using the park as a route to work shouldn't have walk off a path and go 'cross country'
6) Can get yuckie in the rain and snow
7) A good urban park has a fence around it (even if most people don't even notice it)
8) Bicentennial Park has 10 entrances and is a fraction of the size

[TechArch]

Isn't this the same design group that did the revamp on the MBG ? If it is, then i'd say it'll turn out well.

Office of James Burnett out of California did MBG. They collaborated with Gensler on the initial design.

[LandRunOkie]

I like the one with the lake the best. They say 80% of the world's population lives within 15 miles of a body of water. None of Oklahoma City meets that criteria unless you include manmade lakes. I sense a pentup demand for lakes and ponds in this city. You could say Dallas has the same problem but Lake Dallas is probably bigger than all our lakes combined.

[CaptDave]

You are correct of course JTF - just messing with you.

I think there will be more pathways in the final design for the reasons you and others have mentioned. I also agree with catch22 that the trees lining the perimeter serve a function as well. I can see the designers using decomposed granite or some other crushed stone material rather than concrete for the paths though. These types of materials strike a good balance between the natural and programmed areas. The are used extensively in the National Mall and they are not an impediment to bicyclists, strollers, the disabled, or elderly pedestrians. I am confident there will be breaks to provide access from the east/west boundaries. Fence? Not sure about that but open to the idea.

[Snowman]

I like the one with the lake the best. They say 80% of the world's population lives within 15 miles of a body of water. None of Oklahoma City meets that criteria unless you include manmade lakes. I sense a pentup demand for lakes and ponds in this city. You could say Dallas has the same problem but Lake Dallas is probably bigger than all our lakes combined.

Rivers do count as a body of water and the North Canadian used to have some nice natural spots for recreation on it near downtown before the Army Corp of Engineers got a hold of it. After that we did have the lakes.

[Just the facts]

You are correct of course JTF - just messing with you.

I think there will be more pathways in the final design for the reasons you and others have mentioned. I also agree with catch22 that the trees lining the perimeter serve a function as well. I can see the designers using decomposed granite or some other crushed stone material rather than concrete for the paths though. These types of materials strike a good balance between the natural and programmed areas. The are used extensively in the National Mall and they are not an impediment to bicyclists, strollers, the disabled, or elderly pedestrians. I am confident there will be breaks to provide access from the east/west boundaries. Fence? Not sure about that but open to the idea.

You would like to think that but it seriously makes me wonder why that wasn't included in ANY of the 3 designs. As for the fence, pick your favorite urban park outside of OKC and see if it has a fence around it. Not all of them do, but by far most do, and in those that don't I think you will find that the part people like the best does have a fence in that section (i.e. Boston Common). Like a lot of things people like, it is hard to figure exactly what it is that makes them like it. Turns out people like fences around parks.

Who knows though - maybe the designers will have an "Oh crap, we only made 2 ways into the park" moment.

[hoya]

You are correct of course JTF - just messing with you.

I think there will be more pathways in the final design for the reasons you and others have mentioned. I also agree with catch22 that the trees lining the perimeter serve a function as well. I can see the designers using decomposed granite or some other crushed stone material rather than concrete for the paths though. These types of materials strike a good balance between the natural and programmed areas. The are used extensively in the National Mall and they are not an impediment to bicyclists, strollers, the disabled, or elderly pedestrians. I am confident there will be breaks to provide access from the east/west boundaries. Fence? Not sure about that but open to the idea.

I think he means the trees act as a fence, not necessarily an actual metal fence.

[heyerdahl]

You would like to think that but it seriously makes me wonder why that wasn't included in ANY of the 3 designs.

Because they're conceptual alternatives, not designs

here is the PDF of the presentation: http://www.okc.gov/maps3/MAPS%203%20...%20Designs.pdf

[Just the facts]

I think he means the trees act as a fence, not necessarily an actual metal fence.

No, I mean actual metal (or some other material) fence. Not a physiological barrier, but a real physical barrier with openings in it so people walking can get where they want to go.

Like this:

[CaptDave]

That looks very nice for that type of park. I see the OKC Central Park as sort of a hybrid between that and the National Mall. I have that concept in mind especially after hearing the Hargreaves people talk about programming along Robinson and more natural along Hudson. I can defiintely see those type of entrances along Robinson, but more open along Hudson using a row of trees to denote the western boundary across from future residences on the west side of the street. Honestly though, I would be fine with that type of fence/boundary along the entire perimeter of the upper park. I think it looks very nice and does invite one in rather than appearing like a barrier. Maybe I am being overly optimistic, but I really think it is going to be a great park when complete.

[Just the facts]

Even NYC Central Park has a fence around it. Also, large portions of the National Mall - has a fence. The fence defines the space so well and make people feel so comfortable they don't even notice the fence - sometimes even when they are looking right at it.

[kevinpate]

fwiw, I prefer the one with the larger body of water over the other two ideas. I'd prefer it even more if about half the trees between the lake and Union Station were excised out.

[CaptDave]

Sid - they did not specifically address E/W trails during the meeting. I inferred there will be because they did address parking along Hudson for the park, therefore I assumed they are thinking about access from the west.

Kevin - I am torn between conepts 1 and 2. I definitely think we need a lot of trees in this park for shade but I also prefer unobstructed views of Union Station - so I kind of lean toward Option 2 for that reason. I definitely do not want them to start reducing the number of trees planned though.

[catch22]

Here's the Catch 22 central park.

[Just the facts]

Much better catch22. Might I suggest a bridge across the west branch of the pond just where it branches off from the main part of the pond. In addition to providing a more direct pedestrin pathway, it would offer some good views of Union Station as well as providing the paddle boaters a destination.

[Praedura]

Much better catch22. Might I suggest a bridge across the west branch of the pond just where it branches off from the main part of pond.

Holy coincidence, I was just about to suggest the same thing, and at the same location!

Bridges are awesome.

[catch22]

Done.

[catch22]

Actually. This: