Scissortail Park

[OKCisOK4me]

Don't you guys know that the purpose of MAPS projects is to erase history? History is for the books. Go to the library, blow the dust off and appreciate the aesthetic value of a building you never used once in your life.

[jedicurt]

Of the three designs... i think the one without the lake is the best... still far from great, but the best of those three

[Urbanized]

I think the city should just document the existing architecture, taking a lot of pictures. Then try to incorporate some of those styles into the park. Historic preservation is extremely expensive and it would be hard to incorporate those buildings into the park itself. If you are talking about the larger c2s, some buildings might be saveable.

So...sort of like the way the architectural details of the Belle Isle Wal-Mart and surrounding big boxes were designed to "echo" the architecture of the demolished Belle Isle power plant they replaced?

[betts]

So...sort of like the way the architectural details of the Belle Isle Wal-Mart and surrounding big boxes were designed to "echo" the architecture of the demolished Belle Isle power plant they replaced?

Touche

[Spartan]

Historic preservation is extremely expensive and it would be hard to incorporate those buildings into the park itself.

No it's not. This mentality belongs nowhere near our park design.

[TechArch]

With historic preservation, there also tax credits. There may not be as many as there used to be, but they are still out there.

[CaptDave]

So...sort of like the way the architectural details of the Belle Isle Wal-Mart and surrounding big boxes were designed to "echo" the architecture of the demolished Belle Isle power plant they replaced?

Kind of like the transformer yard in the far background pay homage to the power station......Sigh - this is extremely unfortunate to see what was lost.

[Urban Pioneer]

As strange as it sounds, I prefer the original conceptual renderings of the central park. I liked the angles and straight lines of the lake. Nothing irritates me more than humans trying to make something that imitates nature. I'm sure whichever deign they pick will be satisfactory, but I'm a little disappointed.

Ah... if only we would get such a beautiful structure as Eaglevale Arch in our new park...

I agree with both of these sentiments. But there was a few very vocal people who spoke out at the last public meeting against Heargraves "cuestas" and the three lakes. I thought the idea was pretty cool and gave the park grand form. But oh well... lol And perhaps they were a bad idea in that I suspect there are several old buildings in the area potentially saveable in the area they were proposed. Also in the former "grand lawn."

Regarding the NY bridge in the pictures above, I wish we would spend the money to build something like that. But I doubt the architects would go for it. Everything has to be new, modern, and representative of something from the past. And while interpretation of things form the past, an overture have you, is normally a result of small budgets, it has now become the architectural norm rather than a last resort. But the grandeur of that bridge for example, is that it has warmth. Probably because of the scale, but I would argue also because of the more organic materials/stone it was constructed with.

We could easily build a modern day element such as that with natural Oklahoma stone that looks old.

Then there is the opposite result... the fake, bewildering, stone fountain at the NE corner of the new Myriad Gardens. Looking completely out of place. So designers can go wrong either direction. lol

[Dubya61]

... Something can always be added later. Right now, I want to see the fabric of the park -- or the threads of said fabric more appropriately defined -- correctly designed.
Parks are not dissimilar to conventional land in that higher best uses can emerge and new feature and functions can still be introduced later. The key is not to design the park that one day acts as a natural obstacle to such improvements. This is why a "grid" in the park acts as a useful plat. This essentially is one really, really massive super-block.

Sid, I assume you've read JTF's remarks in the Wheeler Park thread discussing OKC's park requirements / threshholds:

In retrospect the Central Park was not a good idea. In addition to losing valuable boulevard frontage it steals visitors from MBG. Here is a quick run down of how the parks should be done in my opinion.

1) Keep MBG as it is today
2) Devon shouldn't have been allowed a large setback and park in front of their building. If their employees want to sit in a park they should have gone to MBG to do it
3) Bicenntenial Park should have been a concrete plaza with planters. That would keep bums from sleeping in it.
4) Sandridge Forest should have never been approved and Couch Drive returned to 2-way traffic.
5) Central Park shouldn't be built. Once again it will steal visitors from MBG and would have allowed infill between the boulevard and I-40.
6) Promenade Park should be built, but not as big as planned.
7) The riverfront should have been urbanized, not turned to park space
8) Wheeler Park should be converted to residential with an urbanized waterfront
9) Wiley Post Park should be reduced by 66% and then use that land to build a mixed-use development (maybe include aquarium) that would be on future streetcar route to Capitol Hill.
10) The Federal Building park should be developed and 7th St reopened
11) Lower Bricktown (south of the old I-40) should be developed
12) Lower Bricktown (north of the old I-40) should be bulldozed and done again making it much more dense

I'm certainly not trying to incite anything, but I think you're saying something like JTF said.
Question: Do you think the Central Park idea is a good plan at face value? Does it take away from or add to the CBD? Say you're emperor for a period of time -- what would you do with the Central Park idea?

[LandRunOkie]

So...sort of like the way the architectural details of the Belle Isle Wal-Mart and surrounding big boxes were designed to "echo" the architecture of the demolished Belle Isle power plant they replaced?

I wasn't aware anyone wanted Bell Isle Station to echo the power station. Maybe I missed that whole saga but otherwise its kind of apples to oranges. 80 acres is not that much for a central park. It could very easily seem forced if some buildings within the boundaries are preserved.

[betts]

I have no problems whatsoever with our new central park. One of the things that makes living downtown easy is not having a yard, or not having a large yard. However, I think most humans crave a little green. Parks serve as a backyard for all of us who don't have one. Does anyone question the concept that real estate around Central Park in NYC is as pricey as it is because you get a park along with your condo? A park is a wonderful counterpoint to concrete and steel. I like both of them. And, for me, the Myriad Gardens is not restful at all. It's too heavily programmed, too cut up for my taste. I want a wide swath of green and trees where I can stroll. I could care less if there's anything other than grass and trees and a few paths in the Central Park, but it and the streetcar were the reason I voted for MAPS 3. I don't think I'm the only one.

[CaptDave]

I often agree with JTF, but not on this one. I am looking forward to this Central Park and remain hopeful it will spur development in the C2S area sooner rather than later. I hope there will be programmed nodes with lots of natural space. The Great Lawn and plaza area in the northeast quadrant will be a great gathering space for concerts and festivals that are too large for Myriad. I think the Central Park should be more relaxing when compared to the frenetic (?) nature of the Myriad programming. I liked elements of two of the three concepts presented tonight, but the final product will be refined as the designers meet with focus groups and other interested parties.

[TaurusNYC]

None of these designs pay any attention to the old train station. It is hidden behind a grove of trees. It is a handsome building and deserves to be seen and used. It makes a nice anchor to the end of the park. If the train station is to be re-purposed for the public, the new tenants will want to be visible and accessible, too. It seems the designers are missing an opportunity to take advantage of the only building in the park. Am i wrong?

[ljbab728]

None of these designs pay any attention to the old train station. It is hidden behind a grove of trees. It is a handsome building and deserves to be seen and used. It makes a nice anchor to the end of the park. If the train station is to be re-purposed for the public, the new tenants will want to be visible and accessible, too. It seems the designers are missing an opportunity to take advantage of the only building in the park. Am i wrong?

Maybe I'm not seeing what you're seeing. I saw nothing indicating that the train station is going to be hidden in the least. They are certainly showing some trees around it but appears to be very visible and accesible.

[HangryHippo]

So...sort of like the way the architectural details of the Belle Isle Wal-Mart and surrounding big boxes were designed to "echo" the architecture of the demolished Belle Isle power plant they replaced?

Honest to God, I could punch someone over this disaster.

[Popsy]

Honest to God, I could punch someone over this disaster.

Wow. If that feeling doesn't go away I think I know someone that would be more than happy to let you try. I think I might even be able to get him to confess that he was responsible for your disaster for the purpose of enhancing your anger to make sure you were really motivated.

[HangryHippo]

Wow. If that feeling doesn't go away I think I know someone that would be more than happy to let you try. I think I might even be able to get him to confess that he was responsible for your disaster for the purpose of enhancing your anger to make sure you were really motivated.

I have no idea what in the world you're talking about... I was probably too heated over seeing that photo, but it brought back a lot of frustration of fighting for preservation of that building and area only to see it go to a Walmart and Old Navy. Really, really disappointing. Especially considering what Baltimore was able to do with one of their old power plants.

[betts]

I was probably too heated over seeing that photo, but it brought back a lot of frustration of fighting for preservation of that building and area only to see it go to a Walmart and Old Navy. Really, really disappointing. Especially considering what Baltimore was able to do with one of their old power plants.

Agree. Considering how banal the replacement for the Belle Isle plant is (and I think banal is kind), it is a huge loss for our city. I hated to see it torn down.

[Just the facts]

The more I think about Central Park and Promenade Park the more I don't like them. The benefits of moving I-40 are greatly diminished if 40% of the land made available for development is used for park land. The 60% left available now is cut-off by a boulevard, 10 lane interstate, and a river and now will be divided down the middle by two parks. I just don't see this becoming a livable area. It will look good on a map and from an airplane, but I think it is going to be miserable at street level. Now that this plan is actually happening my hope for C2S is diminishing quickly.

[LandRunOkie]

The more I think about Central Park and Promenade Park the more I don't like them. The benefits of moving I-40 are greatly diminished if 40% of the land made available for development is used for park land. The 60% left available now is cut-off by a boulevard, 10 lane interstate, and a river and now will be divided down the middle by two parks. I just don't see this becoming a livable area. It will look good on a map and from an airplane, but I think it is going to be miserable at street level. Now that this plan is actually happening my hope for C2S is diminishing quickly.

I agree that its going to be really difficult to pull all this off. The Oklahoma River looks like the LA River from the air. The park blocks off a lot of westbound and eastbound traffic, which is probably higher volume than northbound and southbound traffic. The park should have been longer east to west than north to south. And also bigger. Not enough thought went into the master plan, but no individual project is a failure by itself.

[BDP]

I just don't see this becoming a livable area.

I agree with the exact opposite of this. The park is the only thing that's ever going to make that area livable again. It also helps to concentrate and focus the on each side of it into denser more pedestrian friendly areas with, hopefully, different personalities. I'd live next to it as long as they don't just build a bunch of LEVELs and Edges.

[betts]

I agree with the exact opposite of this. The park is the only thing that's ever going to make that area livable again. It also helps to concentrate and focus the on each side of it into denser more pedestrian friendly areas with, hopefully, different personalities. I'd live next to it as long as they don't just build a bunch of LEVELs and Edges.

Agree completely. And I hope we aren't foolish enough to waste prime real estate on LEVEL and Edge equivalents. If not, I would totally live there.

[CaptDave]

I agree with the exact opposite of this. The park is the only thing that's ever going to make that area livable again. It also helps to concentrate and focus the on each side of it into denser more pedestrian friendly areas with, hopefully, different personalities. I'd live next to it as long as they don't just build a bunch of LEVELs and Edges.

This is where I differ with JTF as well. I think rowhouses and small lot bungalows would do very well in this area. Require at least 10-15% for lower price points, mix single family and multi family. I think the city should require rear service alleys and absolutely prohibit massive front facing garages. Reserve space on the corners for a corner store or cafe - every other or every third block? In between have at least one small pocket park on a corner then build a residence on the other one. The park as a front yard will be the primary facilitator of redevelopment of C2S.I think this could become a great place to live and remain hopeful it will turn out well.

[Just the facts]

If the surrounding area is all 2/3 story townhomes how many housing units do you think they could build? What would be the build-out population?

[CaptDave]

If the surrounding area is all 2/3 story townhomes how many housing units do you think they could build? What would be the build-out population?

That is exactly why I think there should be a mix of townhouses and single family......the basic concept of C2S is pretty solid.