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Thread: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

  1. #1

    Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

    A number of posts in other threads have discussed questions of how to promote urbanization (I love the way we use complicated words to obfuscate simple ideas) of the CBD, otherwise known as "Downtown."

    All of them, it seems to me, sidestep one of the most central issues involved.

    Sixty years ago, in the very early 1950s, we had a thriving and energetic downtown. In fact, in many ways it resembled Damon Runyon's romanticized vision of Times Square in NYC! Most any night, Main street would be packed with pedestrian traffic from sundown until at least 9 or 10 p.m., and weekend evenings saw the action continuing past midnight.

    We had almost a dozen movie houses in the CBD, at least three top-notch hotels (Skirvin, Huckins, and Biltmore), and several notable eating places, all contributing to the liveliness of the area. Bishop's, in particular, was a gathering place for many regulars. The more Runyonesque characters could be found at places like The Greek's in the 400 block of N Broadway, where Oklahoman staffers would relax after leaving the office at 1 a.m. And we even had real baggy-pants comics and exotic burlesque at a theater on Grand (or was the Gaiety on California?)... Our town, like New Orleans, let the good times roll.

    Ten years later, though, things were rather different. Many of the major downtown merchants had moved to the suburbs. One of the first was J. C. Penny, which closed its Main street location and moved to the spanking new Shepherd Mall. Kerr's followed quickly although they retained their downtown presence a bit longer. Even John A. Brown joined the flight to suburban malls, opening branch stores at Penn Square and on Capitol Hill.

    And the streets were no longer so crowded every night. I recall cruising down Main street at 9 p.m. the night before the first OU-Notre Dame game in Norman, and it was almost deserted.

    That loss of interest in the CBD, and our collective infatuation with the malls -- Penn Square, Shepherd, Crossroads, even Mayfair -- set the stage for the violent destruction of much of downtown via Urban Renewal, with its accompanying rape of our historic heritage.

    Yes, it was tragic, but we had a "Pei in the sky" vision of out-Dallasing Dallas with our bright new downtown, and our leaders at the time deemed it worth the cost. We know now, of course, that it wasn't, but hindsight is usually 20/20 or better.

    My question, though, is simple: It took us almost 20 years to make the transition from a thriving, urban downtown area to a vast empty wasteland. Is it reasonable for anyone to expect that we can reverse that process in a shorter time?

    I don't think it is. I think the best we can do is to take many small steps. Sure, it would be nice to have a half dozen or more tall towers -- but one of the things that made our downtown so great was its lack of the concrete canyons that typify Manhattan. Instead, we had a wide variety of amenities. I don't see anyone suggesting that we bring back the likes of the Criterion or the Warner (which began as the Overholser Opera House), nor am I aware of anything in the CBD even remotely resembling the atmosphere at Bishop's. Renovation of Film Row is great, but we also need to fill in the activity gaps that prevent downtown from becoming a destination in itself.

    While typing that last sentence, a slip of my fingers coined a word that just might describe the apparent fate of Stage Center -- "removation." I have no strong feelings about that location, either way, but it's obvious that something is about to transpire...

    As for the speed with which we can recover Downtown, what you you think?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

    The speed will be the rate at which the money makes sense.

    It takes a whole lot less time and resources to just knock buildings down than it does to construct them.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

    Kyle - take a look at your choice of words. Downtown vs CBD (Central Business District). Downtown implies a fully functional 24/7 environment, CBD just means a business district. The question is really how fast we can change the central business district back to downtown. I prefer to think of it as 100 car freight train. It takes a lot of effort to get it going but once a head of steam is built up there will be serious momentum behind it. In 5 years we will see more downtown growth in 1 year than we did in 10 years 20 years ago. For those of you trying to figure that out, in 2017 downtown OKC will grow more than it did for all the years from 1992 to 2002 combined.

    If other cities are any indication, once the streetcar line goes in the official bird of OKC will be the construction crane.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Just the facts View Post
    If other cities are any indication, once the streetcar line goes in the official bird of OKC will be the construction crane.
    I hope you're right, although I probably won't be around to see it...

  5. #5

    Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kyle View Post
    I hope you're right, although I probably won't be around to see it...
    So where are you going, Jim? We're planning on you being around to offer your input for many years to come.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

    I'm not planning any trips, but at 81 I've got to be realistic about the future...

  7. #7

    Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

    You're just a youngster. Keep on keeping on.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

    That's my plan!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kyle View Post
    That's my plan!
    My mom is 89 and she's as sharp as a tack.....remembers things that i'd long forgotten, and you seem to be the same way.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

    Residential and commercial are key for downtown growth unfortunately some developers failed to capitalize on the demand for downtown residential thus not providing a blueprint or bar to gauge downtown's draw for people to.want to live there. Right now almost all residential downtown is segmented a short distance away from the downtown rather than incorperated directly into mixed use buildings within.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

    I'm not at all sure that we should blame "some developers" for the sprawl and for the absence of mixed-use buildings in the CBD. For more than 100 years now, the general public has seemed to prefer living at a distance from the commercial areas, as witness the growth in the area around 10th to 13th (both NE and NW) before WW1, from 23rd to 39th a few decades later, to the west and south during the post-WW2 period, and so on.

    And as the residential areas moved away, commercial interests followed them: Plaza Court, Uptown along 23rd, Capitol Hill along SW 25, Classen Boulevard, and finally the explosive growth of the malls. Sure, developers followed the cheapest land, but they also went where people were most willing to buy. When I bought my first home in 1958, I really wanted to get one around NW 19 and Western -- but the best I could afford turned out to be in a brand new development near SW 59 and May (one of my sons still owns it, BTW).

    In the middle of the last century, we still had quite a bit of true downtown residential, although it wasn't obvious to most. There were a number of cheap hotels along Broadway, and a few even on Main Street, where non-transient folk lived. The Herskowitz building at Broadway and Grand was mostly apartments. Another apartment building very close to the CBD was the Wilmont on NW 5 (as I recall but it could have been 4 or 6). Even the not-so-cheap hotels had permanent residents: Alfalfa Bill Murray lived out his life at the Bristol on the NE corner of NW 2 and Broadway. But "the demand for downtown residential" just wasn't there after Urban Renewal destroyed the existing facilities, and so developers followed the demand that did exist, out into the wheat fields surrounding the city.

    Until the demand for downtown can become strong again, mixed-use isn't very likely to return. So the starting point ought to be re-creation of the demand. The desired result will surely follow, once that is done...
    Last edited by Jim Kyle; 10-21-2012 at 09:54 AM. Reason: added a personal note.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kyle View Post
    A number of posts in other threads have discussed questions of how to promote urbanization (I love the way we use complicated words to obfuscate simple ideas) ...
    This

  13. #13

    Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

    Well, I could have said "I'm preternaturally attracted by our infatuation with polysyllabic restatement of relatively uncomplicated concepts" had I been really going for the brass ring...

  14. Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?


  15. Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?


  16. Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

    This thread kinda confuses me, because downtown IS back. My god, it's roaring... even in the past few years you can tell a huge difference between being the typical U.S. city that tells itself its downtown is back again, and a downtown that is now truly booming.

  17. #17
    HangryHippo Guest

    Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

    UnFrSaKn, your old pictures of OKC always make me so sad to think of what all we've lost and where we once were.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    This thread kinda confuses me, because downtown IS back. My god, it's roaring.
    Look at the first photo posted by UnFrSaKn and you will see the difference between what was, then, and what is, today. We don't even try to have parades like that one any more...

  19. Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

    That's not true. Thunder Alley was/could still be one of the greatest things this city has ever done. Opening Night is right up there. The Flaming Lips' March of a Thousand Ghouls not only had many more than just at thousand ghouls, but it was also right up there. What about the Festival of the Arts, still going amazingly strong?

    There are so many fantastic things happening downtown NOW that still goes unnoticed or uncredited. Downtown has never left OKC's DNA. Downtown may soon even become more of a place to live than it has EVER been. The difference is that we still can't figure out retail.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

    If you are looking for something to blame for the demise of downtowns everywhere you can start with the 1949 Housing Act.

  21. Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?


  22. #22

    Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Just the facts View Post
    Kyle - take a look at your choice of words. Downtown vs CBD (Central Business District). Downtown implies a fully functional 24/7 environment, CBD just means a business district. The question is really how fast we can change the central business district back to downtown. I prefer to think of it as 100 car freight train. It takes a lot of effort to get it going but once a head of steam is built up there will be serious momentum behind it. In 5 years we will see more downtown growth in 1 year than we did in 10 years 20 years ago. For those of you trying to figure that out, in 2017 downtown OKC will grow more than it did for all the years from 1992 to 2002 combined.

    If other cities are any indication, once the streetcar line goes in the official bird of OKC will be the construction crane.
    I think we have already reached that stage -- or pretty close to it!

    But the streetcar line should definitely spur additional development along the route. That and the residential mass that is building up with each new downtown project.

    With the emerging wave of downtown residents who will be, in turn, connected to the various districts by streetcar, we should see a new flourishing of downtown life. I think we're getting very close to this goal.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnlyOne View Post
    UnFrSaKn, your old pictures of OKC always make me so sad to think of what all we've lost and where we once were.
    I agree that our "urban renewal" planning destroyed the fabric of what could have turned into a truly great mid size city. Sad. Hopefully, those planning OKC's DT future today will learn from the past and create a dense, interactive (people) district. Their is certainly a relatively blank canvas from which to start.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

    Downtown is on its way back. I think the next line to cross will be when downtown is a self-sustaining district to live, work, and play and you no longer have to go to suburban areas for basic necessities. Some of our peer cities like Louisville actually have full-fledged retail downtown, integrated well into the downtown fabric (We have to be VERY careful not to allow developers to build suburban style big box stores with massive parking lots downtown). I don't think downtown is quite there yet. I would love if Buy for Less would build an Uptown Grocery in Midtown. That would be a complete game changer for downtown OKC.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Bringing Downtown Back -- Is quick recovery possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
    I would love if Buy for Less would build an Uptown Grocery in Midtown. That would be a complete game changer for downtown OKC.
    You might not be aware that Crescent Market was, for most of its 100+ years of existence, located on the west side of Plaza Court. It moved out to Nichols Hills only about 10 years ago -- and got put out of business by Chesapeake's expansion plans.

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