Oklahoma Commercial Air Service Discussion 2012

[damonsmuz]

OnlyOne: While one can never know for sure what a merger means, I think that a US/AA merger would have hubs in CLT, MIA, DFW, ORD AND LAX with MIA being more of a large focus city to the islands and run as such. I know some may call me crazy with this one, but I could see ORD becoming a very large focus city for AA and run on a slightly smaller scale compared to DFW . CLT will remain as such. PHL and DCA will be scaled back in my opinion as well as PHX. I could see PHX turning into an airport much like CVG. USAirways needs AA more than AA needs USAirways

So, that would mean main hubs would be : DFW,CLT,LAX and large focus cities would be MIA,ORD and PHX.

To answer your question, I don't think AA/US merger would generate a lot of routes to the east from OKC if any. They may "test" a few and see how they run...but... eh... not too sure.

[HangryHippo]

Your main hub/focus city prediction would be pretty excellent for AA.

[CaptDave]

If we are going to primarily be served by RJ's I would like to see more E-170/175/190/195's at WRWA. Those are the nicest RJ's I have ever flown in mainly becaue of the increased headroom. But I am not familiar with how they are assigned or if WRWA is even in the running for them - all I know is I liked flying on them. Anyone have any idea if some of the smaller RJ's (and maybe even partially sold full size jets) may be replaced by these?

[BG918]

OnlyOne: While one can never know for sure what a merger means, I think that a US/AA merger would have hubs in CLT, MIA, DFW, ORD AND LAX with MIA being more of a large focus city to the islands and run as such. I know some may call me crazy with this one, but I could see ORD becoming a very large focus city for AA and run on a slightly smaller scale compared to DFW . CLT will remain as such. PHL and DCA will be scaled back in my opinion as well as PHX. I could see PHX turning into an airport much like CVG. USAirways needs AA more than AA needs USAirways

So, that would mean main hubs would be : DFW,CLT,LAX and large focus cities would be MIA,ORD and PHX.

To answer your question, I don't think AA/US merger would generate a lot of routes to the east from OKC if any. They may "test" a few and see how they run...but... eh... not too sure.

Agree with your thoughts about PHX and PHL, but I think they keep a hub at DCA (as much as they can with the restrictions there). DFW will remain king, with CLT, LAX, ORD, MIA, DCA and JFK right behind as hubs (in that order). The new American would likely maintain nonstop OKC-LAX, OKC-ORD and OKC-DFW with the addition of OKC-CLT and maybe eventually OKC-JFK which would be great.

[venture]

OnlyOne: While one can never know for sure what a merger means, I think that a US/AA merger would have hubs in CLT, MIA, DFW, ORD AND LAX with MIA being more of a large focus city to the islands and run as such. I know some may call me crazy with this one, but I could see ORD becoming a very large focus city for AA and run on a slightly smaller scale compared to DFW. CLT will remain as such. PHL and DCA will be scaled back in my opinion as well as PHX. I could see PHX turning into an airport much like CVG. USAirways needs AA more than AA needs USAirways

So, that would mean main hubs would be : DFW,CLT,LAX and large focus cities would be MIA,ORD and PHX.

To answer your question, I don't think AA/US merger would generate a lot of routes to the east from OKC if any. They may "test" a few and see how they run...but... eh... not too sure.

Ehhh...I almost agree with you. I don't see DCA and PHL getting scaled back at all. PHL would be the only major CONNECTING hub in the Northeast for them. JFK is almost purely O&D traffic and does little for people trying to get from Portland to Roanoke. DCA is also a massive cash cow for US Airways and I only see them trying to grow it even more if at all possible. However, I do think they would have to give up several of the slots AA is sitting on right now to keep it.

CLT is the only strong competitor to ATL and is just a massive hub. MIA I agree that it focuses more on O&D and a focus operation to the islands. DFW isn't going anywhere. I think ORD might get scaled back a bit as well. That's been a rumor for years though. I could see them opting to load it up with 70+ seaters and reduce frequencies though. LAX is a strong O&D market, much like JFK. PHX would probably be a good smaller hub to keep connecting traffic going, but they might give up more to Southwest.

I'm not sure US needs AA more than the other way around. I think they both pretty much need each other. They almost need to do this to remain a strong competitor against the networks of UA and DL. I would say the party that really needs this is OneWorld...get US out of Star and open up a ton of new markets for them.

For OKC I think CLT is the obviously choice. I think DFW and ORD would remain the main connecting points for OKC pax.

If we are going to primarily be served by RJ's I would like to see more E-170/175/190/195's at WRWA. Those are the nicest RJ's I have ever flown in mainly becaue of the increased headroom. But I am not familiar with how they are assigned or if WRWA is even in the running for them - all I know is I liked flying on them. Anyone have any idea if some of the smaller RJ's (and maybe even partially sold full size jets) may be replaced by these?

They'll likely be replaced. Fuel costs right now make 50-seaters uneconomical in most cases. So they need to dump them for the larger RJs or go back to the more efficient turboprops. The biggest thing the airlines will look out for first are yields. Even if flights aren't extremely full, if they are rolling in the dough on higher fares they'll send them there first. Why? They will all more than likely have first class cabins which brings in more money either through direct sale or by keeping premium customers happy.

[OUman]

The E-jets as they are known have been gaining more popularity over the years, there will be more of them no doubt. The CRJs are going to stick around for a while, I'm talking about the 700 and the 900, both of which have better economics than the 100 and the 200. Back in the day(mid-late '90s), people were getting sick of the turboprops, and when the RJs came they delighted in getting jet speed and sound. But then the airlines got clever and then people started hating the RJs. How things change! Personally, I have liked every turboprop I have flown in thus far with the exception of the "Q"400. I've flown in the EMB 120 Brasilia (remember those from the DL Connection ASA hub days?), the ATR 72-200 and -500.

If AA and US merge, I will be surprised if PHX is de-hubbed, US already did away with LAS, but that was because it wasn't working out too well for it. PHX has a good O&D base but also has better connecting traffic than LAS did. Of course if US did leave I'm sure the "other" competitor would be happy to take over the rest of T4.

I doubt ORD would get a big scale back, it remains a "hot" market, unless AA just isn't doing things right and its costs there are increasing. It's also a lucrative OneWorld hub and besides, US has absolutely no east-west hub. Also keep in mind ORD still gets good feed from all the small and medium-sized midwest cities.

[venture]

I'm in the same boat. I've enjoyed the props I've been on. The best one? BAe ATP hands down. Yes...it is roughly as long as a 737-200.



I also enjoyed the the EMB-120 on Comair out of Cincy through the Midwest, ATRs on Eagle, and the Saabs on Mesaba over the Lakes.

[OUman]

^The ATP was the earliest of the six-bladed prop planes, reminds me of the Saab 2000 that came much later. I am surprised the 2000 didn't catch on here in the U.S. though, many markets that are served on short distances with aircraft like the CRJ 200/ERJ 145 would have been much more profitably served with the Saab 2000 in my opinion (and with a cruise speed of 424 mph to boot!). My guess is it was just bad timing, as the 2000 came out roughly when the RJ craze started.

[venture]

^The ATP was the earliest of the six-bladed prop planes, reminds me of the Saab 2000 that came much later. I am surprised the 2000 didn't catch on here in the U.S. though, many markets that are served on short distances with aircraft like the CRJ 200/ERJ 145 would have been much more profitably served with the Saab 2000 in my opinion (and with a cruise speed of 424 mph to boot!). My guess is it was just bad timing, as the 2000 came out roughly when the RJ craze started.

Yeah the Saab 2000 was about 5-10 years or so too early. I remember in the first part of the last decade when airlines like Mesaba and Chicago Express were trying everything to get their hands on them. However, there just were enough to go around. Much like the misfire on the Dornier jets which were about 5 years too late. The Saab 2000 would be knocking it out of the park right now with the economics and passenger experience (faster speeds, good cabin comfort).

One other thing I would point out with the ATP, I believe it was the first modern turboprop that was jetbridge accessible. It took some time, and modifications, to make bridges work with the ATRs and Saabs.

[catch22]

http://www.flyokc.com/statistics/Aug...ent%202012.pdf

Very strong performance across the board.

[catch22]

United Announces New Routes From Cleveland Hub - Yahoo! Finance

United adds Cleveland beginning Feb 14, 2013.

[venture]

Go go Marcellus and Utica shale plays.

We'll see if it lasts.

Cleveland – Oklahoma City			Oklahoma City – Cleveland
Departs	Arrives		Departs	Arrives
8:40 a.m.	10:30 a.m.		10:55 a.m.	2:30 p.m.

[catch22]

Times are kind of strange. But I think it should do okay with the industry ties.

[catch22]

United announces new nonstop from Oklahoma City to Cleveland | NewsOK.com

Oklahoman got the flight times mixed up....

[Praedura]

That's cool. So now Spartan can jet back and forth -- every day, if he likes.

The thing that caugh my attention in the article was that the spokesperson for Will Rogers is Karen Carney. She's still doing that, huh? She's had that job for a long time. Anybody here old enough to remember when she co-hosted PM Magazine?

[LakeEffect]

That's cool. So now Spartan can jet back and forth -- every day, if he likes.

The thing that caught my attention in the article was that the spokesperson for Will Rogers is Karen Carney. She's still doing that, huh? She's had that job for a long time. Anybody here old enough to remember when she co-hosted PM Magazine?

She actually left and then came back, from what I understand.

[OUman]

This isn't the first time OKC has had nonstops to CLE. Continental Express had the service for a year or two before it shut down, which started back in '07 I believe. This time there seems to be a business demand though so hopefully that will add something to the service and evetually also get an aircraft upgrade.

[Richard at Remax]

Good news. This makes my unplanned trip for cedar point next year more likely to happen

[venture]

This isn't the first time OKC has had nonstops to CLE. Continental Express had the service for a year or two before it shut down, which started back in '07 I believe. This time there seems to be a business demand though so hopefully that will add something to the service and evetually also get an aircraft upgrade.

Correct. This service is more about the local market whereas last time it was to go into the CLE hub. UA has pulled back a good amount on the CLE hub, but is maintaining a contracted amount of service through the airport.

[catch22]

One must also consider that with the very full loads that United (and really all of the other carriers) have had at OKC this summer, this is also a capacity increase to spread connecting passengers over a different hub to get them out of OKC. For example, with the business ties on both ends, it would make more sense to send one RJ to CLE at 11am instead of having to upguage the 11am ORD or IAD flight to mainline. You can spread the 11am connecting demand over another hub while reaping the benefits of serving an additional market with business ties.

[shawnw]

The drive from Detroit to Cedar Point is pretty comparable to the one from Cleveland to Cedar Point, isn't it?

[disinfected]

The drive from Detroit to Cedar Point is pretty comparable to the one from Cleveland to Cedar Point, isn't it?

Cleveland is give or take 60 miles or so closer.

[LakeEffect]

Cleveland is give or take 60 miles or so closer.

Yep. Toledo is about equidistant from Cleveland to Sandusky, not Detroit.

[venture]

Yep. Toledo is about equidistant from Cleveland to Sandusky, not Detroit.

Yeah looks like it is pretty close. Toledo is 58 miles and Cleveland is 62 miles. Detroit to Toledo is about 50 miles, so you have to take that on. Though the drive isn't bad...I-75 to 280 to 80/90. Either way, the CLE flight is going to be great for those going up to vacation in Northern Ohio for Cedar Point. Would also recommended take a day and take Jet Express from Sandusky (if you are going to CP) to Put-In-Bay to enjoy a day on the Islands.

[shawnw]

Ah. I did the Detriot to Cedar Point drive last summer and it didn't seem that long, probably because it is such an easy drive, though I do remember wishing I had flown into Cleveland instead because the Indians were playing and I totally would have gone to the game before checking in at Cedar Point, while the Tigers were on the road. Basically poor planning on my part.