Get rid of the surface parking

[fsusurfer]

Really, it seems to me everybody here agrees that what is there is better than nothing. However, most can agree that it could have been better, corruption in OCURA, City/County government and all of the Good Old Boy network is plenty, and excitement and disappointment runs hot and cold depending on the day and if we're presented with setbacks or positive developments. In other words, we're all really not that far apart in how we feel. The what ifs can drive you crazy and for good reason, yet the excitement of activity of any kind downtown brings excitement. It doesn't have to be one or the other. It's a mixed bag. A lot like life itself.

--------

I agree... but it seems like everything posted on the Bricktown section of OKCTalk is negative, except for the posts in the thread titled "In this thread, we say nice things about Bricktown". I know Bricktown could be better, but no matter if you like Bricktown or not, Bricktown has still done a lot for this state, including making myself and many other people stick around and pump money into the state. I've stated before, I live in Bricktown, and I enjoy it very much. When people say negative things about Bricktown, I'm going to defend it, because in essence, its my "backyard". Im done with this for tonight, as I'm going to walk across the street, grab a bite to eat and a beer, and enjoy the rest of the night at one of the great bars and check out the hot women

[okrednk]

I happen to love the ideas and the way Bricktown is shaping up. I love the way their is the open parking and all the new development and stores that come on line as the canal grows up. Its still so young and is still really coming into its own. Its not just about Bricktown, yet OKC as a whole. Does it make it better and an attraction to out of towners? Absolutely! Ever been to Riverwalk in San Antonio? Whats so great about that place? Yes, there are lots of shops and buildings and such there? Hmmmm, how long has it been there? How long has it had to mature and gain attractions? Could a move of Frontier City and White Water to the River all connecting improve the River/Canal areas? Absolutely! Options are unlimited with all the space still available. Its not going to be an overnight thing where this canal/Bricktown/OKC/River project is complete. Its something the CITY (All areas) has to grow into. Just stop and think, if you don't like the riverwalk don't go. But honestly tell me is there really any other places like the canal anywhere else in the state that has what Bricktown has now? Lets wait and see how it grows up, especially with the additions of the condos and such living spaces. Just wait, OKC is on an impressive growth. It just don't happen over night.

[Doug Loudenback]

I think the main concern most of us have at the present time is the corrupt activity that goes on daily in OCURA and city hall. This is the reason why downtown OKC isn't all it could be.

Those are serious charges, Patrick, and I'm not saying that you are not right, I'm only saying that I'm unaware. But, if you're serious, and want to be taken seriously, it might be good for you to:

(1) Define what you mean by "corrupt activity". Most of us probably think of that phrase as connoting something illegal. If you don't mean "illegal", you might think about phrasing your criticisms in such regards differently.

(2) If you DO mean "corrupt activity = illegal", then you need to take care to be prepared to back up your statements if someone is of a mind to litigate with you vis a vis defamation litigation. Chose your words carefully, and be prepared to back them up, if that should become necessary. I say this as a friend, not as a critic.

Personally, I have no clue about the truth of your comment either as (1) a metaphor or (2) in a way much more serious. But, if the latter is true, it certainly needs to be the subject of a grand jury or other legal inquiry.

[John]

I think Patrick means corrupt business practices.

Unfair advantages given to those close the the G.O.B. network, without letting the competition have the same, etc.

[writerranger]

But, if the latter is true, it certainly needs to be the subject of a grand jury or other legal inquiry.

Okay. Katy bar the door. This might be long, but it needs to be said.

Doug, you make good points. However, to be honest, I wouldn't trust this county DA office with a Grand Jury to arrive at anything other than rubber-stamping the GOBN (good old boy network.) They are a government entity and I can call "corrupt" without fear of litigation, and the DA's office in Oklahoma County is corrupt to the core and has been for years. That Bob Macy is not in prison is a travesty, the Joyce Gilchrist matter still floats around while nothing is being done. Mark Fuhrman was absolutely right in his book about Oklahoma County and Bob Macy - corrupt. The Dallas Observer was right about Oklahoma County's DA office - corrupt. If you want a good read, check out "Oklahoma Railroad" from the Dallas Observer. It's ten pages of truth that we'll never hear about from our local media. Not until Hell freezes over.

As for OCURA, it is corrupt. They are bought and paid for. Anybody wanting to do business within their domain must curry favor with these people. That is wrong. It invites corruption. A government agency that operates the way they do with such blatant cronyism can be called nothing BUT corrupt. Not all the members, of course, but most of us know who the dirty ones are and are not. I fear no litigation from attacking a taxpayer-funded agency. OCURA is Chicago-style corruption and I'm not afraid to say it. It's much like saying, "Congress is full of crooks." Which Congressman is going to sue for such a statement? Well, OCURA, as a whole, has proven to be corrupt and the Authority should be shut down and something else, with more oversight, put in its place. Don't hold your breath.

Secrecy is their friend. Public ignorance is their friend. Where's the OCURA website? Where are their meeting times and agendas and minutes online? Hell, where are even the members of OCURA's board listed? Oh, I'm sure they are somewhere, but the lack of a website and their penchant for secrecy is ridiculous. Try even Googling "Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority" and see what information you get straight from the horses mouth. The answer: you won't. It's all third-party references. Getting information from that bunch is like pulling teeth, but, what would you expect? When the lights come on - the roaches scatter. They want to do their dirty work as quietly as possible. It's the nature of the beast.

Doug, I love 'ya brother, you are one of the greatest assets of this forum, but I agree with Patrick about this scandalous den of thieves known as OCURA.

-----------------

[Doug Loudenback]

Doug, I love 'ya brother, you are one of the greatest assets of this forum, but I agree with Patrick about this scandalous den of thieves known as OCURA.

I'm not disagreeing, I just don't know. As I said,

Personally, I have no clue about the truth of your comment either as (1) a metaphor or (2) in a way much more serious. But, if the latter is true, it certainly needs to be the subject of a grand jury or other legal inquiry.

My principal concern wasn't the truth of the "corruption" one way or another but was instead intended to say to Patrick that great care should be used with such words for the reasons I said.

Thanks for the background. I'll check out your links later. In the meantime, I guess I'll stay behind the couch!

[writerranger]

It's too late to edit, but I linked to the wrong edition of the Mark Fuhrman book. The one with reviews, etc. at Amazon is:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C4STW0
The book is very good and most people around here (OKC) never even knew it was written!

[Patrick]

I agree... but it seems like everything posted on the Bricktown section of OKCTalk is negative, except for the posts in the thread titled "In this thread, we say nice things about Bricktown". I know Bricktown could be better, but no matter if you like Bricktown or not, Bricktown has still done a lot for this state, including making myself and many other people stick around and pump money into the state. I've stated before, I live in Bricktown, and I enjoy it very much. When people say negative things about Bricktown, I'm going to defend it, because in essence, its my "backyard". Im done with this for tonight, as I'm going to walk across the street, grab a bite to eat and a beer, and enjoy the rest of the night at one of the great bars and check out the hot women

Again, the issue is not whether we like or dislike Bricktown. I like Bricktown. I never said I didn't like Bricktown. But, at the same time I don't approve of the illegal business practices that are going on, mostly within the walls of OCURA, that hold us back as a city. And yes, even though Bricktown is nice, OCURA has held it back, just as they held back the Skirvin for so many years.

If it wasn't for OCURA we'd have a lot nicer downtown right now. Problem is, developers don't want to deal with OCURA. Try dealing with OCURA....it's a huge headache. Most developers don't even bother with downtown because of all of the obstacles OCURA putsd up, most of the obstacles being being unfair to anyone that isn't part of their GOB network.

[Patrick]

I think Patrick means corrupt business practices.

Unfair advantages given to those close the the G.O.B. network, without letting the competition have the same, etc.

Exactly.

[Patrick]

(2) If you DO mean "corrupt activity = illegal", then you need to take care to be prepared to back up your statements if someone is of a mind to litigate with you vis a vis defamation litigation. Chose your words carefully, and be prepared to back them up, if that should become necessary. I say this as a friend, not as a critic.

I do question the legality of members of OCURA selecting Hogan to develop Lower Bricktown when a few of them were his very own business partners in the East Wharf development. Fred Hall did excuse himself from voting, but he influenced the rest of the pack.

Unfortunately, it was extremely difficult to prove in this case. Why? Moshe Tal's tactics were mostly to blame. Plus, proving that a good ole boy network exists is extremely difficult in a court of law, especially when the court of law sides with the good ole boy network before the case is ever held.

I'll never forget the excuse OCURA used for selecting Hogan over BT2000......they stated that BT2000's plan was too ambitious. What?

Anyways, I realize all of this is in the past, but to some degree I agree with Moshe. If we don't stop this activity, who will? We're the citizens. We put these folks in office.

[fsusurfer]

Again, the issue is not whether we like or dislike Bricktown. I like Bricktown. I never said I didn't like Bricktown. But, at the same time I don't approve of the illegal business practices that are going on, mostly within the walls of OCURA, that hold us back as a city. And yes, even though Bricktown is nice, OCURA has held it back, just as they held back the Skirvin for so many years.

If it wasn't for OCURA we'd have a lot nicer downtown right now. Problem is, developers don't want to deal with OCURA. Try dealing with OCURA....it's a huge headache. Most developers don't even bother with downtown because of all of the obstacles OCURA putsd up, most of the obstacles being being unfair to anyone that isn't part of their GOB network.

I know what your saying is correct, and its definatly not right the way things have been delt with under the table. I also know things might not be as nice as they could be, but I am still happy with the product, and I think Bricktown has done wonders for the city. Heres an example...3 of my best frieds from Florida are all coming in town in a couple weeks. We all usually go on a trip every summer, and instead of planning on going anywhere else, they all wanted to come here to OKC because they liked it so much when they were here a couple years ago. Not much of a trip for me, but they all love Bricktown and the convienence of everything. When they were here last time, there was no movie theatre, no toby keiths, and I'm sure they will enjoy it even more now. Also, I want you to know I am glad we have people like you who will call a foul when they see one, it can only help to improve what I believe is already a great entertainment district

[Patrick]

Okay. Katy bar the door. This might be long, but it needs to be said.

Doug, you make good points. However, to be honest, I wouldn't trust this county DA office with a Grand Jury to arrive at anything other than rubber-stamping the GOBN (good old boy network.) They are a government entity and I can call "corrupt" without fear of litigation, and the DA's office in Oklahoma County is corrupt to the core and has been for years. That Bob Macy is not in prison is a travesty, the Joyce Gilchrist matter still floats around while nothing is being done. Mark Fuhrman was absolutely right in his book about Oklahoma County and Bob Macy - corrupt. The Dallas Observer was right about Oklahoma County's DA office - corrupt. If you want a good read, check out "Oklahoma Railroad" from the Dallas Observer. It's ten pages of truth that we'll never hear about from our local media. Not until Hell freezes over.

As for OCURA, it is corrupt. They are bought and paid for. Anybody wanting to do business within their domain must curry favor with these people. That is wrong. It invites corruption. A government agency that operates the way they do with such blatant cronyism can be called nothing BUT corrupt. Not all the members, of course, but most of us know who the dirty ones are and are not. I fear no litigation from attacking a taxpayer-funded agency. OCURA is Chicago-style corruption and I'm not afraid to say it. It's much like saying, "Congress is full of crooks." Which Congressman is going to sue for such a statement? Well, OCURA, as a whole, has proven to be corrupt and the Authority should be shut down and something else, with more oversight, put in its place. Don't hold your breath.

Secrecy is their friend. Public ignorance is their friend. Where's the OCURA website? Where are their meeting times and agendas and minutes online? Hell, where are even the members of OCURA's board listed? Oh, I'm sure they are somewhere, but the lack of a website and their penchant for secrecy is ridiculous. Try even Googling "Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority" and see what information you get straight from the horses mouth. The answer: you won't. It's all third-party references. Getting information from that bunch is like pulling teeth, but, what would you expect? When the lights come on - the roaches scatter. They want to do their dirty work as quietly as possible. It's the nature of the beast.

Doug, I love 'ya brother, you are one of the greatest assets of this forum, but I agree with Patrick about this scandalous den of thieves known as OCURA.

-----------------

Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks writerranger.

I will add, I love Oklahoma City, Bricktown, etc. with all my heart. I've grown up here and love living here. That's the reason I want the corruption cleaned up in our city government. People called Moshe a fool. But, when you sit down and actually use intellectual common sense to try and understand where he was coming from, you'll see that he was right.

The sad part is that no one is willing to expose the good ole boy network. If you think The Oklahoman would step up to the plate to do that, you're dreaming. They side with the GOB. Afterall, they often benefit from it. Bass Pro is an example.

Moshe Tal stuck out like a sore thumb, because most people in this city would like to believe that the leaders the elect are honest folks. And most of them are. But, it's the select few that meet behind closed doors that ruin everything.

Personally, I think OCURA should be disbanded, and a new Citizens Oversight Board established, similar to the MAPS Oversight Board. Strangely, much of the time the MAPS Oversight Board butted heads with OCURA. Just ask Carl Sullivan. I think he'd agree with much of what writerranger and myself state here. Instead of city council putting people on this boad, I think the general public needs to vote on these folks. I tend to wonder if even that would work though, becuase the general public is pretty ignorant and would probably put the OCURA members back on the board, simply because of their name recognition

[Patrick]

I know what your saying is correct, and its definatly not right the way things have been delt with under the table. I also know things might not be as nice as they could be, but I am still happy with the product, and I think Bricktown has done wonders for the city. Heres an example...3 of my best frieds from Florida are all coming in town in a couple weeks. We all usually go on a trip every summer, and instead of planning on going anywhere else, they all wanted to come here to OKC because they liked it so much when they were here a couple years ago. Not much of a trip for me, but they all love Bricktown and the convienence of everything. When they were here last time, there was no movie theatre, no toby keiths, and I'm sure they will enjoy it even more now. Also, I want you to know I am glad we have people like you who will call a foul when they see one, it can only help to improve what I believe is already a great entertainment district

I want you to know, I completely agree with you. I love Bricktown. I love going down there to catch a baseball game, and eat a nice meal at Zios on the canal.

I just wonder if the corrupt dealings will ever be exposed for what they are. Moshe Tal tried. Look where he got.

[Patrick]

LOL! Just ask metro or MalibuSooner how hard it is to get minutes from an OCURA meeting, or even attend a meeting for that matter.

[Patrick]

Just to show you the type of guy Kirk Humphreys was at the time......

David Cordish had an appointment scheduled to meet with him about BT2000's development proposal. While Cordish is in flight from Baltimore to OKC, Humphreys cancelled the appointment. And later, Humphreys tried to claim Cordish wasn't even tied to the project.

Whatever. I call the shots how they are.

[citizenkane]

My tax dollars paid for the land on which Lower Bricktown now sits. My tax dollars paid for Bass Pro Shops. I think I have the right to complain about the development that's taking place south of Reno. Where's the unique retail we were promised? Where the bricks? Lower Bricktown is a laughing stock among out of towners. Who is responsible for this mess?

What are you talking about? Lower Bricktown is great. I was so happy that Bass Pro Shops came to OKC i wrote this here letter to the mayor:

Mr. Mayor,

Thanks for bringing a Bass Pro Shop to the city. I have shopped at Bass Pro Shops for over twenty years, and I felt it was time Oklahoma City got itself one. They have so many great items and activities for children and older people alike.
There ain’t a better thing Bass Pro has to offer than the shooting range. At the range you git to shoot stuffed animals like coons, possums, and skunks. I remember the first day Bass Pro opened. Me and my two year old son, Andy, went to the shooting range. I even let him shoot. He could barely hold the gun, but he still managed to shoot a possum. He nailed that possum right between the eyes! I have to admit, the joy that came to Andy’s face when he got his first kill brought tears to my eyes. Every young boy needs to be exposed to guns at an early age in order to grow up and be a man.
My wife, Crystal, says that she loves to see me and Andy in plaid, so next week we did us some shopping at Bass Pro. They even have pretty clothes for women too. Another great thing about Bass Pro is when you are done shopping and your wife is not, you don’t have to beat her or yell at her to leave. You just can go look at hunting and fishing gear or the big fish tank full of beautiful fish like bass and catfish. We bought us some real nice clothes, camping gear, and fishing supplies.
The location of the Bass Pro Shop is great. When we was done shopping we just headed over to Toby Keith’s I Love This Bar and Grill in the truck. That restaurant is good. Where else in Oklahoma City can you git really good chicken fried steak, catfish sandwiches, or tasty freedom fries?
I really feel that the Bass Pro Shop makes our city look good. Thanks for putting classy joints like this in our fair town.

God Bless America,

Billy Kane

[HOT ROD]

^^ very sarcastic. ha ha ha

[maestro]

That's....okay, I'll just say it: that's just stupid.

[SoonerDave]

I will concur with others here that there should be great care in tossing around words like "corrupt" and "bought and paid for." Those are allegations that can get legal beagle attention.

I think this board gives Moshe Tal *waay* too much of a pass on his perpetual reluctance to disclose his investment base. As I recall, he was asked numerous times and he refused numerous times to give more detail about who would underwrite his fabulous plans. He never could, or if he could, he chose not to.

This is not a defense of Hogan, OCURA, or anyone else, but it is an attempt to point out that Tal could be as much to blame as anyone for failing to get the Lower Bricktown development project. If the Good Ol' Boy Network is at work here, no, it probably wouldn't have made much difference what Tal disclosed. But his abject refusal (after numerous requests) to be more open about his investor base gave what I think was more than sufficient cause for pause over his plans.

You can draw all kinds of pretty pictures and plan to bring in the moon for Saturday night entertainment, but if your funding is/was shaky, what good is it?

Besides, people here complain mightily about the evils of things like chain restaurants and stripmalls, yet seem here to bemoan the theoretical loss of things like an ESPNZone? We hear of Tal's plans for "world class shopping," but who was actually *signed up* to lease space in an area that right now can't even generate enough residential occupancy to justify a grocery store?

As I said, I have no interest in defending Hogan or any other players in the Bricktown Soap Opera. But I do think it is naive to assume that the "greener pastures" promised by Tal would have been as smooth, perfect, and trouble-free as some might suggest.

-SoonerDave

[traxx]

SoonerDave you're exactly right. I don't want to defend Hogan or anyone else either, but it seems that the losing proposal is always the one that would have changed the future of Oklahoma. It's kind of like Brent Rawls having never played a game as an OU quarterback is now thought of as the great one that got away. We elevate these things because we think of what could have been when in reality they may not have been much better than what we ended up with.

And the thought of an ESPN Zone isn't any better than what we currently have. With chain restaurants and big box stores making every city in town in America look the same, I say we should try to have as many originals and few chains downtown as possible. We need to set ourselves apart so that when people come to visit OKC they get something here that they can't get anywhere else.