Get rid of the surface parking

[Survey]

My tax dollars paid for the land on which Lower Bricktown now sits. My tax dollars paid for Bass Pro Shops. I think I have the right to complain about the development that's taking place south of Reno. Where's the unique retail we were promised? Where the bricks? Lower Bricktown is a laughing stock among out of towners. Who is responsible for this mess?

[floater]

I am tired of the "I paid tax dollars, so I get to..." argument, but nevertheless I agree. We've been here before:

http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-are...face+Bricktown

I don't think Lower Bricktown is that bad. It's not very downtowny, but it still is a unique place in OKC. But to your point, I'm ambivalent: all that free parking spoils you, but at the same time, everytime I visit LB, I wish I could see those "stairs that go up to nowhere" actually lead to something.

[Survey]

I don't see how it's unique. The movie theater doesn't look much different from Tinsletown. The Sonic Building looks like any office building in the suburbs. The Residence Inn will look like any hotel in the suburbs. Go check out Amerisuites on Memorial Rd. Bass Pro looks like a Wal-Mart. Huge sea of parking. Must I go on?

This is downtown people. Not Edmond.

[Rambo]

I can see where you're coming from, Survey. Taxpayers purchased that land, and yet it's not what many expected. A 16 screen movie theater and a large box retailer belongs outside of downtown. Plus, why should people like Sonic benefit from land that was purchased by the tax payer.

[shane453]

I'm sure that Sonic paid the expenses of constructing their building, and they either lease or have bought the pad site that their office buiding is built on.

[BDP]

I agree. "Unique" is the last word I would attach to lower bricktown. I know it has been run into the ground, but it was a complete waste of tax payer money. I think tax payer assistance can be somewhat justified if it results in landmark type status or brings something new to the market. LB has done neither of these things.

[floater]

I agree. "Unique" is the last word I would attach to lower bricktown. I know it has been run into the ground, but it was a complete waste of tax payer money. I think tax payer assistance can be somewhat justified if it results in landmark type status or brings something new to the market. LB has done neither of these things.

LB may not be a landmark, but is a unique place -- in OKC. Is there another place in the city where you can watch a movie, walk alongside a canal, sit down at a Sonic, enjoy a fountain, and worship Toby Keith, shop for boats, all in one location? By themselves, they are not unique, but together, it's a singular place. As we've said before, the architecture is unremarkable, and it's not urban, but it's a place. And I still think it's made downtown more accessible to suburbanites who otherwise would be at a strip mall.

[Patrick]

I'm sure that Sonic paid the expenses of constructing their building, and they either lease or have bought the pad site that their office buiding is built on.

Yeah, but the profits from the sale are going to Randy Hogan, not the city, who gave him the land for free in exchange for money for canal improvements.

[fsusurfer]

What’s so bad about lower bricktown...do some people not have enough to gripe about? I live downtown, I hang out in LB a lot. I go to the movies there, I enjoy sitting on the patio at Toby Keiths and drinking a beer. When I moved here 4 years ago there was nothing there, and I'm grateful they have built a nice place to hang out. I'd rather pay tax money for that, than some of the other crap our government has us pay taxes for. So what it doesn’t look exactly like Bricktown? The only place I think doesn’t belong, and wont stay there long is Fuegos. As if Bricktown doesn’t have enough Mexican restaurants. I've been saying this a while, what bricktown needs is a cool Irish bar.

[writerranger]

I think we all toss around the word, "unique," in way too loose a fashion. "Unique," means one-of-a-kind, without equal, unparalleled. In fact, there is a very good discussion about the use of the word under the heading "Usage Notes" here:
http://www.answers.com/unique&r=67

Just a thought. I see this word misused a lot, not just here, but everywhere. I'm not trying to play "language police" here, but words really do have certain meanings and this is one that truly is thrown around with indifference to its real meaning.

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[Patrick]

What’s so bad about lower bricktown...do some people not have enough to gripe about? I live downtown, I hang out in LB a lot. I go to the movies there, I enjoy sitting on the patio at Toby Keiths and drinking a beer. When I moved here 4 years ago there was nothing there, and I'm grateful they have built a nice place to hang out. I'd rather pay tax money for that, than some of the other crap our government has us pay taxes for. So what it doesn’t look exactly like Bricktown? The only place I think doesn’t belong, and wont stay there long is Fuegos. As if Bricktown doesn’t have enough Mexican restaurants. I've been saying this a while, what bricktown needs is a cool Irish bar.

I can tell you've only been in OKC for 4 years, as it's apparent that you may not be aware of why we have what we do today, instead of what could've been far superior.

Back in the early 90's when Randy Hogan was selected to develop what is know today as Lower Bricktown, there were 2 other developers who submitted proposals to develop the property: Sooner Investments and Bricktown 2000 (a team led by Moshe Tal and nationally known developer, David Cordish).

Bricktown 2000 had the most ambitious plan, calling for a world class 3 level shopping center with upscale stores rivaling the Galleria in Dallas, Cordish secured the right to build an ESPN Zone and a Hard Rock Cafe on the west and east sides of the canal just south of Reno, he had secured Marrriott Hotels to build a 15-20+ story convention type hotel which would've been similar to the Marriott RiverCenter in San Antonio, a world class Country Music complex that would've made Toby Keith's look sick, a state of the art International Gymnastics Hall of Fame, an Arts and Crafts village along the south canal, a new downtown office tower 20 stories or better, a parking garage under a 14 screen Sony Screens movie theater, etc.

Most people thought Bricktown 2000 was a shoe in, especially with the experience of David Cordish on board. Tal had letters of financial backing from Midfirst Bank and Bank One, at the time, along with what he claimed were foreign investors, but that's really beside the point.

I saw the renderings of what they had planned, and if you saw them today, you'd probably cry knowing what ended up there.

Randy Hogan was chosen instead. Why? Because of the good ole boy network that exists within our city government. It was actually Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority that chose Hogan, and 2 members on the board were business partners with Hogan out on the East Wharf development at the time. The rest were close friends. The mayor of OKC at the time had used Randy Hogan's services numerous times, as they were both in the real estate business and were buddies.

We, the taxpayers of OKC, got screwed, and the city and state court system supported the fraud. Why? Tough to prove something like that in court.

Randy Hogan made numerous promises, and failed to deliver. What we have today, isn't even what he promised originally. After losing numerous contracts, or making false claims (whatever you'd like to believe) he had to quickly throw together a development.

Randy made the promise when he was selected that he had the backing of the Fortune 500 Torchmark corporation, and that he could finance "every square inch of the project." Yet, he came running to the city asking them for money to finance Bass Pro Shops. What?

Urban Renewal gave him many many deadlines, and extensions. I thought the extensions would never stop. It was obvious they were trying to help out a friend in the business.

But, this is the history of Urban Renewal. Just look at the recent issue with The Hill development. Anthony McDermid and company was the obvious best choice for the property. Yet, we were al surprised when Stanton L. Young voted for his buddy over at the Reserch Park to develop The Hill.

The good ole boy network still exists in our government today. It's gotten better since Mick Cornett took office, but even of late it's been obvious that he's willing to play politics as well. Afterall, why else do you think he endorsed Ernest Istook before he ever announced whether he was running for District 5?

[BDP]

What’s so bad about lower bricktown...do some people not have enough to gripe about? I live downtown, I hang out in LB a lot. I go to the movies there, I enjoy sitting on the patio at Toby Keiths and drinking a beer. When I moved here 4 years ago there was nothing there, and I'm grateful they have built a nice place to hang out. I'd rather pay tax money for that, than some of the other crap our government has us pay taxes for. So what it doesn’t look exactly like Bricktown? The only place I think doesn’t belong, and wont stay there long is Fuegos. As if Bricktown doesn’t have enough Mexican restaurants. I've been saying this a while, what bricktown needs is a cool Irish bar.

I think you make a good point that, for district residents, it does give them the same thing found in suburbia. But when I say "unique", I mean the websters #1 definition of "being the only one". There is nothing you can do or see there that you can't do in at least 2 other places in the city. Yes, the canal is a different deal, but, really, it's surrounded by a parking lot and doesn't feel much different than any cemented creek in the city right now.

I don't want to say the area doesn't have merit, but it offers nothing new to the city and, because of that, I don't see why the tax payers needed subsidized it. My inclination is that when they agreed to subsidize it, they thought it would bring something new and, at least to the city something unique.

[BDP]

Bricktown 2000 had the most ambitious plan, calling for a world class 3 level shopping center with upscale stores rivaling the Galleria in Dallas, Cordish secured the right to build an ESPN Zone and a Hard Rock Cafe on the west and east sides of the canal just south of Reno, he had secured Marrriott Hotels to build a 15-20+ story convention type hotel which would've been similar to the Marriott RiverCenter in San Antonio, a world class Country Music complex that would've made Toby Keith's look sick, a state of the art International Gymnastics Hall of Fame, an Arts and Crafts village along the south canal, a new downtown office tower 20 stories or better, a parking garage under a 14 screen Sony Screens movie theater, etc.

I am crying right now.

[Patrick]

The Western Avenue district is unique. The Power Plant in Baltimore (a David Cordish development) is unique. Time Square is unique. The French Quarter in New Orleans is unique. Sad, but Old Town Wichita is unique. Brookside in Tulsa is unique. The Plaza in downtown Santa Fe is unique.

San Antonio Riverwalk used to be unique but residents will tell you now, that with the onslaught of chains, it isn't the same as it used to be. Still, I think the destination is unique to San Antonio. Obviously, no one has had success trying to copy it.

West End in Dallas is NOT unique.

[fsusurfer]

[QUOTE=Patrick]
Bricktown 2000 had the most ambitious plan, calling for a world class 3 level shopping center with upscale stores rivaling the Galleria in Dallas, Cordish secured the right to build an ESPN Zone and a Hard Rock Cafe on the west and east sides of the canal just south of Reno, he had secured Marrriott Hotels to build a 15-20+ story convention type hotel which would've been similar to the Marriott RiverCenter in San Antonio, a world class Country Music complex that would've made Toby Keith's look sick, a state of the art International Gymnastics Hall of Fame, an Arts and Crafts village along the south canal, a new downtown office tower 20 stories or better, a parking garage under a 14 screen Sony Screens movie theater, etc.
[QUOTE]

ESPN Zone, Hard rock cafe? Big deal? We have those back home, those places aren’t thought of very well. I think the fact they are not in bricktown, makes bricktown unique! International Gymnastics Hall of Fame...darn, I'm really missing that. So things didn't go exactly as planned, do they ever? Yeah it might be cool to have a world class Country Music complex, but the Ford Center is right down the street, I see country concerts there all the time and that suits me just fine. Seriously, this is OKLAHOMA. Its not the thriving metropolis as some people believe. There are things I think bricktown needs, and I'd like to see downtown, maybe over time... But, What the developers have done, is made people like myself enjoy living downtown. My apartment complex is 90% of people my age, not from the state of Oklahoma, and they all enjoy bricktown and the convenience of everything. Its exciting, and it makes people like myself want to stay and not return to our native state or go to another location. Maybe the development of bricktown didn't turn out like it was originally planned...but what it has done is satisfy people like myself, and made us enjoy living here, thus pumping money to the economy, and possibly creating more growth in the future.

[floater]

Okay, poor word choice. But you guys are preaching to the choir (as far as I am concerned). The fact that we have so much surface parking where there should be canal frontage just speaks to the fact that Bricktown real estate isn't as much in demand as some would like to think.

Downtown living spaces are so highly priced maybe because we have too many low- and non-earners (jailbirds and homeless), and DOKC needs to increase folks on the other end of the income range in order to up the median/mean to a magic number - $50K, perhaps. If businesses wanted to be there, they'd be there. Once we get to that magic number, the retail will hopefully follow.

Hogan is also a half-assed retail/entertainment developer, but we've said that for the illionth time already.

[fsusurfer]

Okay, poor word choice. But you guys are preaching to the choir (as far as I am concerned). The fact that we have so much surface parking where there should be canal frontage just speaks to the fact that Bricktown real estate isn't as much in demand as some would like to think.

Downtown living spaces are so highly priced maybe because we have too many low- and non-earners (jailbirds and homeless), and DOKC needs to increase folks on the other end of the income range in order to up the median/mean to a magic number - $50K, perhaps. If businesses wanted to be there, they'd be there. Once we get to that magic number, the retail will hopefully follow.

Hogan is also a half-assed retail/entertainment developer, but we've said that for the illionth time already.

EXACTLY, attract more people living downtown, and the retail will come. Look, I know things didn't turn out as planned, but serriously, most of Bricktown IS unique. I hate to see people griping about it, and believe me I know you payed taxes on it, but like we all havent payed stupid taxes before! The bricktown area is one of the main reasons I live in this state, because its FUN and there is always something to do! I think if I would have moved any place else in Oklahoma City, I would have been hating life and I woulda been outta here a long time ago. Of course things could be better, but they could be worse to! Im thankful for what we have!

[Patrick]

That's right, it didn't turnout as planned. Instead of a mixed development with urban density and structured parking, we have suburban sprawl with surface lots, not unlike any development you'd find in a suburban center.

What's even worse, is the unethical activity that's going on in our city government, and folks like yourself simply choosing to brush it under the rug, when we should all be appalled.

This is the reason things in this city never become first class. We're too willing to accept 2nd class, and we could careless what goes on behind the scenes in our city government.

If Bricktown takes on the path of Lower Bricktown, don't expect it to be an attraction in the near future. Just look what happened to the West End in Dallas.

[Patrick]

If businesses wanted to be there, they'd be there.

Part of this you can blame on folks like Jim Brewer that are simply holding onto their properties until the right time comes to sell them. They have no interest in leasing their space.

[Patrick]

EXACTLY, attract more people living downtown, and the retail will come.

I agree.

Look, I know things didn't turn out as planned, but serriously, most of Bricktown IS unique. I hate to see people griping about it, and believe me I know you payed taxes on it, but like we all havent payed stupid taxes before! The bricktown area is one of the main reasons I live in this state, because its FUN and there is always something to do! I think if I would have moved any place else in Oklahoma City, I would have been hating life and I woulda been outta here a long time ago. Of course things could be better, but they could be worse to! Im thankful for what we have!

I think the main concern most of us have at the present time is the corrupt activity that goes on daily in OCURA and city hall. This is the reason why downtown OKC isn't all it could be.

And if it wasn't for OCURA, we'd still have retail frontage today. OCURA destroyed that.
Personally, I think we need to disband OCURA all together. But that's for another topic.

[Patrick]

Just looking at numbers, Hogan has invested a little over $90 million in Lower Bricktown, once the new condos are complete. This is pale in comparison to the $400 million Bricktown 2000 was going to invest, plus they were going to pay market value at the time for the property where Lower Bricktown now sits.

Why did we give Randy Hogan land for free? Heck, I want land for free.

Why did we give Bass Pro Shops money to build a building? But yet denied requests from Academy and other sporting good retailers?

[fsusurfer]

What's even worse, is the unethical activity that's going on in our city government, and folks like yourself simply choosing to brush it under the rug, when we should all be appalled.

Like myself? Frankly, I think your in the minority as to being disapointed with bricktown. I have no problem with whats happend in bricktown, and I know at least 400 residents or so living downtown who like it, and invest their money into it every day, not to mention, theres about to be a lot more moving downtown that enjoy bricktown also. You can spend your whole life chasing tax dollars...not just in our local government, but in our state and US government as well. Our tax dollars all fly out the window. You spend your life griping about it, and I'll spend my life enjoying it. Have fun!

[floater]

Part of this you can blame on folks like Jim Brewer that are simply holding onto their properties until the right time comes to sell them. They have no interest in leasing their space.

Yeah, it'd be interesting to know who Brewer and other Bricktown property owners have turned down over the years. But I can't imagine we'd be crying over them as much as with the Cordish proposal.

[floater]

Like myself? I know at least 400 residents or so living downtown who like it, and invest their money into it every day, not to mention, theres about to be a lot more moving downtown that enjoy bricktown also.

But that doesn't mean they think it is everything they need or want.

[writerranger]

Really, it seems to me everybody here agrees that what is there is better than nothing. However, most can agree that it could have been better, corruption in OCURA, City/County government and all of the Good Old Boy network is plenty, and excitement and disappointment runs hot and cold depending on the day and if we're presented with setbacks or positive developments. In other words, we're all really not that far apart in how we feel. The what ifs can drive you crazy and for good reason, yet the excitement of activity of any kind downtown brings excitement. It doesn't have to be one or the other. It's a mixed bag. A lot like life itself.

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