Core to Shore

[Buffalo Bill]

The problem is that the one track is owned by Union Pacific who said no to people on or near the tracks.

So the old railyard was rendered useless by UP's policies?

[Just the facts]

So the old railyard was rendered useless by UP's policies?

Yep - even if was still there we couldn't use it.

[Larry OKC]

Based on those activites you provided I can probably count on one hand the number of people who fit that profile. If you don't like to walk why are you going to the park or crossing a 400' pedestrian bridge? Maybe an urban excursion train would be more suited to what you are thinking.

Really? Then why are we building this relatively massive MAPS 3 park anyway? It is to be a community gathering point for all kinds of programmed uses. Because of the layout of the Park, it is going to be a long walk from one end to the other and shortcuts will be welcomed. Not everyone is capable or willing to walk the several blocks from one end to another. I don't understand the walking rationale being used here. Why are you expecting the Park people to walk but not everyone else? In other words, why is the Streetcar going directly to the Hub or some of the other stops and not some spot up to 3 blocks away?

Not against the excursion train idea either. Maybe we can get the Railroad Museum to relocate to the Park???

[Just the facts]

For walking to be a mode of transportation there has to be something at both ends of the walk, otherwise it is just excercise. If someone is there to simply 'see the park' what difference does it make if they get dropped off on the edge of the park or the middle of the park?

[Spartan]

I visited the ODOT rail branch years ago after a fatal car train accident at Coffee Creek road and the BNSF. They have the top floor SW corner office. Great views of downtown. Maybe your "moderate transit experts who can't afford to burn bridges" should visit them, too. Or maybe stop telling lies.

Heavy-handed. That is just what I heard from someone who had just came from that office, but perhaps I should pay a visit to ODOT. Why do you think I'm trying to lie to people on here? Please inform me what financial or otherwise interest you think I have that is motivating me to pull the wool over..

Why did you goad me into an appraisal of ODOT just to berate me for making a comment on ODOT? I don't understand that logic, you seem to be desperate for an excuse to make heavy-handed posts, or is that just the buffalo talking?

[Buffalo Bill]

Heavy-handed. That is just what I heard from someone who had just came from that office, but perhaps I should pay a visit to ODOT. Why do you think I'm trying to lie to people on here? Please inform me what financial or otherwise interest you think I have that is motivating me to pull the wool over..

Why did you goad me into an appraisal of ODOT just to berate me for making a comment on ODOT? I don't understand that logic, you seem to be desperate for an excuse to make heavy-handed posts, or is that just the buffalo talking?

I didn't say that you lied, only that you were spreading misinformation from your "moderate transit experts who can't afford to burn bridges" re ODOT rail branch.

Tsk, tsk.

[Larry OKC]

Buffalo Bill: So who was the last line of your post directed:

Or maybe stop telling lies.

[Larry OKC]

For walking to be a mode of transportation there has to be something at both ends of the walk, otherwise it is just excercise. If someone is there to simply 'see the park' what difference does it make if they get dropped off on the edge of the park or the middle of the park?

I was agreeing with your point, so I am not sure why this concept is so hard to understand. I can only presume I am not explaining it right. By its design/layout, the Park is long and narrow. That means there are going to be areas that some folks will be interested in and some not. Those points of interest may not be all clustered together. There are going to be those that either by choice or ability, will not be able to transverse the distance. If they are only given one option of a drop off point, that restricts accessibility. The easier you make something to do, the more likely most are going to do it. The harder you make it, the less likely. There will be exceptions but that is human nature. For those taking the Streetcar, the greater the Park you can expose them (as opposed to just 1 corner) the more things might be of interest to them etc. More exposure leads to more use. If we want to spend $132+ million on a Park and then not have it used to its full potential, much less the RIO by encouraging high density residential development above and beyond what the Park itself is suppose to generate. For a myriad of reasons, it is obvious that the Streetcar needs to transverse as much of the Park as possible (but at least to Union Station in this round of funding) and an obvious stop is a train station. Just as the other train station is the obvious location for the Hub.

[Buffalo Bill]

Buffalo Bill: So who was the last line of your post directed:

At the "moderate transit experts". Stated that they should either visit the ODOT Rail Branch or stop telling lies about it and its location.

Sorry if it was misconstrued that I was saying Spartan was lying.

[Larry OKC]

I could see where it could go either way...

[Just the facts]

I think I see where you are coming from Larry. The presence of the park is to encourage nearby high density multi-story housing (you don't need a back yard if there is 50 acre park right across the street). You are of the opinion that introducing the streetcar to this area will facilitate that development (correct me if I got that wrong).

If that is the case then it comes down to priorities with phase 1. The area between Deep Deuce, downtown, Automobile Alley, and Midtown already has a few thousand residents that can make use of the streetcar today – plus, there is plenty of vacant land along the route for urban in-fill (and who knows, maybe an urban park on the north side of downtown). This route will deliver instant ridership on day one.

One thing to keep in mind is that this MAPS III streetcar is only phase 1 (with a possible phase 2 headed towards HSC). This WILL NOT be the only two phases. Every city in the world that has reintroduced rail transit can’t build new lines fast enough. People flock to it because of its convenience, developers crave it because it allows them to build higher densities, and governments love it because it is much cheaper to build and maintain then roads. Of course, there are people who don't like it - Departments of Transportation, UAW/Automakers, and other people invested in road construction.

Just wait until commuter rail is introduced – not only will Edmond and Norman be wanting it, but every town, hamlet, and community within 50 miles of OKC will be scrambling to find a way to get connected.

[Larry OKC]

JTF: Think we are on the same page now

There are no guarantees that we are going to get more funding (hopeful but not guaranteed). I understand that this is going to be a "starter system" but what happens if those other funds don't happen? The Mayor explicitly stated that they weren't putting anything into MAPS 3 that we couldn't pay for and complete ourselves. Solving the very same problem we got into with the MAPS 1 Streetcars. We all know how that turned out. We got the rubber tired Trolleys instead. If we are going to spend $128,815,000 on the Streetcars, it seems logical to put them in the areas where you are going to maximize RIO. Hopefully they aren't going to cost as much as projected (think the numbers are avg/mile) and we can get those few extra blocks to get to Union Station. But on the other hand it may cost more and track may have to be cut.

[Just the facts]

Larry, the money will be there because it has to be. The world is entering a new phase of fuel were gasoline is going to be priced based on the global market. Economies that are based on the individual automobile mode of transportation are going to be at an economic disadvantage to those that allow the free movement of people and goods without the use of global priced fuels. A seismic shift is coming to the American transportation landscape. The US is not going to have a choice but to fund rail transit. The automobile is a luxury mode of travel and we as a nation can no longer afford the luxury. Individuals will still be able to afford the luxury but they won’t be doing it in the numbers they are doing so today.

Riderships increases today are mostly based on the high price of gasoline, but as Americans realign their living arangements to be closer to rail transit lines then the cost considerations will move away from fare vs gasloine price to fare vs total cost of owning a car. When that happens good by automobile and the gasoline taxes used to fund highway maintenance. I ran the numbers for myself and if we could get rid of just one car by living closer to a rail transit station or in a walkable community we would save close to $1,000 per month. If we could get rid of both cars we could afford a house/condo payment just on the money we SAVE by not having 2 cars (if I need a car we can rent one by the hour).

I am not saying that is going to happen over night but that is clearly the trend and the ultimate outcome. Anyone not planning for that will get left behind.

http://www.apta.com/mediacenter/pres...Ridership.aspx

[Larry OKC]

Maybe the money will be there eventually but I wouldn't be counting on it in the short term. If it happens that is great, but if not we might end up with another AICC.

[warreng88]

Tire shop near OKC convention center development site to close
By Brian Brus
Journal Record
Oklahoma City reporter - Contact: brian.brus@journalrecord.com / 405-278-2837 / https://twitter.com/JRBrianBrus
Posted: 05:55 PM Tuesday, June 26, 2012

OKLAHOMA CITY – Ira’s Tire Shop will yield to the development of a new convention center downtown and close its doors for good after 75 years, co-owner Mike Smith confirmed Tuesday.

The small business is in the way of Oklahoma City’s Core to Shore and MAPS 3 development plans, on the corner of SW Second Street and S. Hudson Avenue, sandwiched between the site chosen for a convention center and the former Interstate 40 crosstown. The Urban Renewal Authority this month contacted Smith and his brother, Donald Smith, to let them know the agency intended to buy the property.

“The city has requested that Urban Renewal acquire the convention center site, which is everything from Robinson all the way over to Walker, from Reno down to the old I-40 that they’re tearing down near SW Third,” authority Executive Director JoeVan Bullard said. “We’ll do everything we can to negotiate a purchase of that land. Letters have gone out to the owners in that area that say we’re interested in the area.

“Eminent domain would be the absolute last resort and the Urban Renewal Authority acting on behalf of the city will go the extra mile, knowing that this family has owned the tire shop for years and years,” he said.

The shop has been targeted for one of the MAPS 3 projects approved by voters in 2010. The temporary 1-cent sales tax is expected to raise $777 million for a 470,000-square-foot convention center, 70-acre public park, Oklahoma River improvements, a streetcar in downtown and other projects. Development has coincided to a small degree with the movement of the Interstate 40 crosstown south several blocks toward the river, opening a large swath of land for redevelopment, referred to as Core to Shore.

The City Council in March 2010 approved Urban Renewal’s involvement in acquiring Core to Shore properties, which Bullard said is now under way for the convention center.

He said a registered letter was sent to the Smiths to let them know the authority intends to ensure respectful, fair and equitable treatment of all property owners in the pursuit of their property. The only other real estate of interest for the convention center is held by REHCO Downtown Development LLC, a local property development group.

“The people who have sold their property to Urban Renewal on the south side of the old I-40 that we’re buying property for the park, they’re walking away with a very fair price,” Bullard said. “You get not only the appraised value of the land but you get relocation and re-establishing expenses as well.

“Ira’s has always been a very strong downtown customer. They stayed downtown when everybody else was fleeing, so I’ve got a deep appreciation for those folks,” he said.

According to the Oklahoma County assessor’s office, Ira’s property has a market value of $237,000.

“We’ll keep going until somebody comes in and buys us,” Mike Smith said. “And they’ll get us sooner or later. … We’re sitting in a good spot to be bought out. But I’ve got no idea how much they’ll offer us.”

The tire shop hasn’t always been at its current address. When it was owned by the brothers’ father, Ira, the business was in the 200 block of SW Third Street and had to move to allow for widening Interstate 40. So Mike Smith said being closed by more development involving an interstate would be an appropriate end to an era.

“We’re not going to move again. I’m 71 and Donnie’s 74. We’ve got good health and stay pretty active and busy. So we’ll just wait it out,” he said. “This will be the end of it.”

[wschnitt]

My friend that works in the planning office said that as part of the core 2 shore, all of the hubcap alley buildings were slated to be torn down for a part. I do not see how that could possibly be true. Any thoughts? I think he was confused with central park but then he said between 11th and 15th street. ideas?

[ljbab728]

It looks like there are a few bumps in the road with unhappy property owners in the area.

http://newsok.com/some-oklahoma-city...rticle/3692804

[BoulderSooner]

pretty much a non story ..

[betts]

Had there been no park, their land would be virtually worthless.

[Snowman]

It looks like there are a few bumps in the road with unhappy property owners in the area.

http://newsok.com/some-oklahoma-city...rticle/3692804

as in they are only getting around two times the appraised value of the properties not three or being able to hold on to sell after the park directly by them.

[Spartan]

Can we get pictures up of these people? I'm curious how many teeth they have.

[ljbab728]

Can we get pictures up of these people? I'm curious how many teeth they have.

LOL, I saw pics in the paper this morning. There were no open mouths so I couldn't count teeth.

[ophitke38]

Along the bluff overlooking Wheeler Park is an excellent location for a row of high-rise townhouses or condos. Probably a really good sunset view over the park and the river, plus whatever Kirk Humphries decides to build at the old downtown airport. Concentrating residential in one area allows for adjacent areas to have more greenspace.

[ophitke38]

Wow - I looked at the Chamber's spiffy conceptual videos of what "tomorrow's downtown Oklahoma City" might look like, and I cringed. Streets were a block wide, sidewalks even further apart - did they even listen to the ULI observations? Or did this crap predate that? The city has to be pedestrian friendly. What the Chamber's putting out is far from it.

[Larry OKC]

Had there been no park, their land would be virtually worthless.

True but since there is going to be a Park, the value has risen...maybe the City should have bought the property before they announced the plans for the park when it was worthless? Like they did with other properties in the Park area before MAPS 3 passed 9with G.O. bond money)???