Stage Center

[mburlison]

They say Picaso is great art - I don't like it and I don't consider myself a hick. Stage Center might be appealing to some, it's not to me - I don't push for it 'to go' or 'stay' either one, but I hate to see idle buildings/land. Oklahoma City needs to develop within her own personality, not try to be 'Charlie Tuna'.

[dankrutka]

The natural development of cities dictates that higher uses overtake lower uses. Interfering with that natural development is what screwed up most American towns and cities. For example, everyone loves FNC, but something had to be torn down for FNC to go up. Even Stage Center replaced something else. Where OKC failed miserably was 'higher use' giving way to 'lower use'. Urban development doesn't work in reverse.

All "higher use" and "lower use" are not created equal. It will stink (even if it's economically unviable) if Stage Center is torn down when there are so many empty lots all over the downtown area.

[Pete]

My hope is that we get a really slick, high-quality development for that property that would make everyone forget about Stage Center.

Unfortunately, we don't get many of those but hopefully this site will draw some sophisticated players with real money behind them.


Devon, Project 180 (the final product, not the process) and the Myriad Gardens have all set a very high standard in that area.

[catcherinthewry]

^This

[G.Walker]

Stage Center for sale huh? Well a private developer is not going to pay millions of $$$$ for the building, then pay another $30+ million for flood damage repairs and renovations. If a private developer is going to buy this building, it will be razed, and something new will be built in its place, sorry.

I wouldn't be surprised if this site is not purchased by Oklahoma City Public Schools for future expansion of their downtown elementary school.

Sad enough, more than likely the site will be sold to the City though, and then the City will sit on that property for years, until developer comes with some big money to buy it from the City, then the City will ask for double for what they paid for it, and then make profit.

[Pete]

I deleted a ton of posts because many were personal attacks and others were just way off topic.


And BTW, calling a post rather than a person idiotic (or similar) violates the environment we hope to cultivate here. Of course people are going to disagree but intelligent people should be able to do so without becoming completely acrimonious.

Let's please not go down the path of virtually every other message board where it's just a bunch of people rehashing the same -- often personal -- arguments.

[Spartan]

Stage Center for sale huh? Well a private developer is not going to pay millions of $$$$ for the building, then pay another $30+ million for flood damage repairs and renovations. If a private developer is going to buy this building, it will be razed, and something new will be built in its place, sorry.

I wouldn't be surprised if this site is not purchased by Oklahoma City Public Schools for future expansion of their downtown elementary school.

Sad enough, more than likely the site will be sold to the City though, and then the City will sit on that property for years, until developer comes with some big money to buy it from the City, then the City will ask for double for what they paid for it, and then make profit.

I don't think so. I think if this site is going to sit in speculative limbo for the coming years, then at least the theater stays and we'll talk about seeing what minimal repairs could make it at least functionable and habitable even though it obviously won't get the renovation it needs under that scenario.

I think the most likely scenario is that it gets demolished in conjunction with an ambitious proposal. This site is valuable and that is the factor driving Stage Center's demolition more than anything else. If this gets demolished and replaced with nothing for a long time, that will be the straw that breaks the camel's back and that will usher in a new type of accountability that I'll admit we just don't have downtown.

[Just the facts]

If anyone was going to tear down Stage Center it would be the current owner. No one is going to pay the million it will cost for this land, tear down the building, and then sit on the vacant land for speculation.

[Pete]

I think the time may be right for a high-rise residential project on this site.

First of all, it's perfectly situated on the park and with all of the CBD and everything else within easy walking distance.

Secondly, with The Hill finally selling all it's completed units, that signals that the condo market has firmed up. Even if something was announced today, it would take at least 2 and maybe as many as 4 years to get a new condo project open.

Remember that The Centennial -- the only for-sale downtown residential with any type of view -- sold out in record time and for an average of over $400K per unit. And let's face it, that is a pretty lame, nondescript building without great vistas.


I think OKC is hungry for some big-city condos and I can't think of a better spot, especially if they were to include restaurants and other public amenities on the first few floors. Imagine the view of a 2nd or 3rd level restaurant facing the park, not to mention the units above.


Or perhaps due to the proximity of the proposed convention center, it could be a hotel on the bottom and condos above.

[G.Walker]

I think the time may be right for a high-rise residential project on this site.

First of all, it's perfectly situated on the park and with all of the CBD and everything else within easy walking distance.

Secondly, with The Hill finally selling all it's completed units, that signals that the condo market has firmed up. Even if something was announced today, it would take at least 2 and maybe as many as 4 years to get a new condo project open.

Remember that The Centennial -- the only for-sale downtown residential with any type of view -- sold out in record time and for an average of over $400K per unit. And let's face it, that is a pretty lame, nondescript building without great vistas.


I think OKC is hungry for some big-city condos and I can't think of a better spot, especially if they were to include restaurants and other public amenities on the first few floors. Imagine the view of a 2nd or 3rd level restaurant facing the park, not to mention the units above.


Or perhaps due to the proximity of the proposed convention center, it could be a hotel on the bottom and condos above.

The problem I see with a high rise residential project on this site, is the proposed downtown elementary school right across the street. Most high-rise condos/hotels tend to have restaurants/bars that serve alcohol, therefore, it will be hard to find a developer to build upscale hotel/condos without a restaurant/bar that services alcohol.

[BoulderSooner]

The problem I see with a high rise residential project on this site, is the proposed downtown elementary school right across the street. Most high-rise condos/hotels tend to have restaurants/bars that serve alcohol, therefore, it will be hard to find a developer to build upscale hotel/condos without a restaurant/bar that services alcohol.

a school doesn't prohibit a restaurant with bar .. and if this project gets zoning/abc overlay permit before the school opens they would be grandfathered in for a full stand alone bar

[Just the facts]

The Stage Center land is big enough for two, maybe even three, towers. The floor plates of residential building aren't near as big those of an office building. You could easily get FNC, City Place, and Liberty all on that land. Heck, there might even be room for a Classen as well.

[Urbanized]

I repeat: there is no restriction whatsoever on opening a RESTAURANT with full mixed beverage service near a school or a church. It is a different type of license.

The restriction only applies to bars that derive more than 50% revenue from liquor sales. That is why Hideaway Pizza, as an example, could open mere steps away from St. Paul's Episcopal Church.

Also, if a hotel landed on the Stage Center spot, it would have a single liquor license for the entire property, and would have at least 50% of its TOTAL HOTEL FOOD AND BEVERAGE REVENUE derived from food sales. Even if they had a bar in the hotel that was branded separately and bar-only - think Red Piano in the Skirvin - it would be on the same license as the catering and restaurant.

[G.Walker]

I repeat: there is no restriction whatsoever on opening a RESTAURANT with full mixed beverage service near a school or a church. It is a different type of license.

The restriction only applies to bars that derive more than 50% revenue from liquor sales. That is why Hideaway Pizza, as an example, could open mere steps away from St. Paul's Episcopal Church.

Also, if a hotel landed on the Stage Center spot, it would have a single liquor license for the entire property, and would have at least 50% of its TOTAL HOTEL FOOD AND BEVERAGE REVENUE derived from food sales. Even if they had a bar in the hotel that was branded separately and bar-only - think Red Piano in the Skirvin - it would be on the same license as the catering and restaurant.

Thanks for the information, I learned something today. So that is good news, then the development potential for this site is endless, let's hope it falls in the right hands.

[CaptDave]

I think the time may be right for a high-rise residential project on this site........

Or perhaps due to the proximity of the proposed convention center, it could be a hotel on the bottom and condos above.

I think the Ft Worth Omni would be a very good "prototype" for this type of development. It is across the street from the FWCC and is laid out exactly as you described. It is a high quality facility and would be very high on my list for a home were I to relocate to Ft Worth.

[Pete]

I think the Ft Worth Omni would be a very good "prototype" for this type of development. It is across the street from the FWCC and is laid out exactly as you described. It is a high quality facility and would be very high on my list for a home were I to relocate to Ft Worth.

That would work! If Ft. Worth can support this, so can OKC:

[OKCisOK4me]

I stayed there 2 birthdays ago. Absolutely wonderful and Id love to see the concept in OKC. Still thinking that if Omni is going to have a presence here that they are waiting for convention center grounbreaking.

There was a restauraunt/lounge/bar in the hotel called Wiskey & Rye I believe. Idk if it is their cookie cutter brand or local flavor but it was nice as well.

[CaptDave]

I agree. I liked everything about that place. I think it would work extremely well in OKC. The restaurants were very good and the entire facility was well thought out.

[Larry OKC]

On the future of Stage Center:
Let me first say on Stage Center that I recognize it's place in architectural history and I am not advocating for it to be torn down or preserved. I am sympathetic to all sides of this issue and I understand there are no easy options....
But JImbo, if I'm put in a position of simply calling how this game ends... it's coming down. I see no saviors on the horizon... and yes, this is now the most prime piece of land anywhere downtown. I'm tracking several MAJOR proposals for the site. It will like be an ambitious mix of retail or housing, or a substantial office development.

Read more: http://newsok.com/steve-lackmeyer-st...#ixzz21qxG0eA4

[Just the facts]

I couldn't do Steve's job - my head would explode

[Steve]

I couldn't do Steve's job - my head would explode

It's less painful the fourth or fifth time it happens....

[Pete]

As much as it may stink to have to say goodbye to Stage Center, at least it is coming available at a good time.

That property is more valuable than ever and the money seems to be flowing a little easier or large commercial project.


It wasn't that long ago that most the area around this property was considered skid row. Now you've got the gorgeous MG on one side, a new elementary going in to the west with the burgeoning Film Row just beyond, and the bus station going out to the north, with the possibility of that whole block being redeveloped. And Project 180 improvements on all sides.

I'd really like to see a residential development here but would settle for an office building, as long as it's at least 40 stories.

[BDP]

On the future of Stage Center:
Let me first say on Stage Center that I recognize it's place in architectural history and I am not advocating for it to be torn down or preserved. I am sympathetic to all sides of this issue and I understand there are no easy options....
But JImbo, if I'm put in a position of simply calling how this game ends... it's coming down. I see no saviors on the horizon... and yes, this is now the most prime piece of land anywhere downtown. I'm tracking several MAJOR proposals for the site. It will like be an ambitious mix of retail or housing, or a substantial office development.

I'm not doubting this, but I also find it strange why anyone looking to do an ambitious mix of housing or a substantial office development would put up with the battles that surround Stage Center. With the vast inventory of surface lots and completely undeveloped land within a few blocks of this site, any competent developer could start tomorrow on making their vision a reality as opposed to focusing on this site which may take years before the wrecking ball is allowed to arrive. Given the amount of scars of emptiness in this town, I would much rather see every grass lot developed downtown before calling in the bulldozers to raze a building that many treasure.

If there is any true indicator on the real health of Oklahoma City, it's that there is so much land left within mere blocks of the city center the location of which is still not valuable enough to warrant development.

[Just the facts]

So let me ask you Steve because this is something that has always bothered me about the entire MAPS strategy and the current CC location (and no I don't want to turn this into a CC discussion). MAPS was created as a way to rebuild downtown by increasing private sector investment/development and make downtown OKC, and by extension, the entire metro area a better plact to live, work, and play. So there are multiple development proposals for the Stage Center site but only one can go on the Stage Center property. That is going to leave atleast 2 other viable MAJOR projects without a home. I assume these projects are attracted to this site because of its proxiimity to MBG. With two other vacant lots adjacent to the park are we running the risk of killing private sector development by building a MAPS project on those lots - which is counter-productive to the entre reason for MAPS? Or are these projects only interested in the one site and will get tossed in the trash like the 4 or 5 projects that weren't selected for the Mercy site?

[OKCisOK4me]

If there is any true indicator on the real health of Oklahoma City, it's that there is so much land left within mere blocks of the city center the location of which is still not valuable enough to warrant development.

So basically you're saying Devon wasted $750 million? Or any other future developer?

Surely those grass lots will be developed in the future with buildings much smaller than what us dreamers are looking for. Gotta remember that this isn't NYC. If a substantial highrise is going to be built, it will be as close to the core as possible and that's what the Stage Center lot is.