Streetcar

[Just the facts]

Service to the airport should be on a non-stop commuter rail line to downtown. The downtown transit hub should have a ticket agent, airline self-check kiosk, and luggage check-in.

[BoulderSooner]

Service to the airport should be on a non-stop commuter rail line to downtown. The downtown transit hub should have a ticket agent, airline self-check kiosk, and luggage check-in.

not sure how much of a need a ticket agent would be but a sef check it would be a great idea when this rail line /LRT becomes a real thing

[Hutch]

REMEMBER THESE NUMBERS:

Light Rail: $60-80 million per mile

Commuter Rail: $6-8 million per mile

Light Rail from Downtown out the Boulevard to Meridian to the Airport: 10 miles...$600-$800 million

Commuter Rail from Downtown to the Airport: 8 miles...$50-$65 million

Light Rail from Downtown to Midwest City/Tinker: 8 miles...$500-$700 million

Commuter Rail from Downtown to Midwest City/Tinker: 9 miles...$55-$75 million

Light Rail from Norman to OKC to Edmond: 30 miles...$1.8-2.4 billion

Commuter Rail Norman to OKC to Edmond: 30 miles...$180-$240 million

For the 1/2 the cost of building just the light rail from Downtown to Meridian to the Airport, you can essentially build the entire regional rail transit system, including the intermodal hub.

[Bellaboo]

Sorry for being an idiot, but what is the difference between light rail and commuter rail ? Besides hundreds of millions of dollars.

[OKCisOK4me]

The circle would actually either make a great western terminus, or a good entrance to downtown from the airport. I know streetcar to the airport is something a lot of people want.

I thought we wanted LRT to the airport?
Read all posts after quoting.

For Hutch... Why do you want to go down the boulevard and then out to Meridian? Use existing rails and right-of-way. Stillwater Central has a line that runs right down by the airport, thus slashing your estimates in half.

[mcca7596]

For Hutch... Why do you want to go down the boulevard and then out to Meridian? Use existing rails and right-of-way. Stillwater Central has a line that runs right down by the airport, thus slashing your estimates in half.

He was saying if it were light rail that would be the logical route. Commuter rail uses existing rails; light rail runs in medians of roads/streets and is different from streetcars in that it isn't actually in the lanes of automobile traffic usually, as far as I know.

[BoulderSooner]

I thought we wanted LRT to the airport?
Read all posts after quoting.

For Hutch... Why do you want to go down the boulevard and then out to Meridian? Use existing rails and right-of-way. Stillwater Central has a line that runs right down by the airport, thus slashing your estimates in half.

he doesn't ... that is why he quoted the price for commuter rail .. that would go south of the river then over to the airport

[Urban Pioneer]

Yesterdays meeting audio...

http://soundcloud.com/moderntransitp...maps-3-transit

[Hutch]

he doesn't ... that is why he quoted the price for commuter rail .. that would go south of the river then over to the airport

Exactly...the point was to show how much more expensive Light Rail is than Commuter Rail. I used the Boulevard to Meridian to Airport example for Light Rail because there are a number of civic leaders and others who have and continue to promote this idea, most of whom have no idea of what the actual cost would be to develop.

[Hutch]

Sorry for being an idiot, but what is the difference between light rail and commuter rail ? Besides hundreds of millions of dollars.

Commuter Rail refers to operating "heavier" diesel-electric locomotives with passenger coaches on existing "heavier" guage freight tracks, usually where existing rail right-of-ways and tracks already exist. The New Mexico Rail Runner in Albuquerque and the Trinity Rail Express between Ft. Worth and Dallas are typical Commuter Rail trains.

Light Rail refers to operating "lighter" electric passenger rail vehicles in their own separate right-of-way, which usually involves all new right-of-way acquisition and installation of new tracks and overhead electrical systems. The yellow DART electric trains in Dallas are typical of Light Rail.

[OKCisOK4me]

he doesn't ... that is why he quoted the price for commuter rail .. that would go south of the river then over to the airport

Nm....

[Cocaine]

So why would commuter rail even need to be talked about when the people who use public transportation the most don't get decent service. Wouldn't it best to build light rail just for OKC and not for Edmond, Norman, etc. We all know there will be opposition if a commuter or light rail was proposed to Edmond. People think up crazy scenarios in there head about people taking a train to rob people's houses.

[Hutch]

So why would commuter rail even need to be talked about when the people who use public transportation the most don't get decent service. Wouldn't it best to build light rail just for OKC and not for Edmond, Norman, etc. We all know there will be opposition if a commuter or light rail was proposed to Edmond. People think up crazy scenarios in there head about people taking a train to rob people's houses.

The term Commuter Rail is a misnomer of sorts. It is a term that is used in the transit world to describe diesel-electric passenger trains that run on existing tracks and provide both local and regional service. Commuter Rail does not mean that the trains only service commuters from the suburbs. A Commuter Rail system in Oklahoma City would have many stations within Oklahoma City itself and service many of those who need transportation to get around within the City and the metro area.

The biggest issue for Oklahoma City itself in providing comprehensive transit service for everyone is a lack of funds. OKC can't even fund and operate its own decent bus service. The idea that the City is somehow going to come up with a billion dollars on its own to build Light Rail is not a realistic one.

The way you get a full-blown effective transit system is through a Regional Transit Authority involving all of the municipalities in the metro area contributing to governing, funding and operating that system. That is normally done through an RTA and with a dedicated funding source...like a permanent 1/2 cent sales tax...that is collected within a Regional Transit District overlaying all of the area involved in the system. That's how Dallas, Denver, Salt Lake City and the others do it. That's how they can have a 600 vehicle bus system and commuter rail and light rail and pay for it all. That's the only way Oklahoma City is ever going to have an effective and comprehensive transit system.

There's always going to be opposition of some kind to developing a rail transit system, whether it's Light Rail or Commuter Rail or whether it operates only inside OKC city limits or serves other cities as well. That's the way it's been in every metropolitan area that has developed a regional transit system. But the answer isn't to limit the system based on those who make noise.

Edmond, Norman, Midwest City and others have been ready to move forward with developing a regional transit system for some time. They've just been waiting on OKC. It looks like we're finally getting to the point where everyone is ready to move forward together and build the system that all of us need. My advice to everyone who wants that is to get involved and communicate your support to our elected City officials.

[Hutch]

OK...let's have some fun instead of listening to me talk about the technical issues of rail tansit or the legal repercussions of NEPA. Here's a Google Earth image showing our potential commuter rail system...

[Just the facts]

Commuter rail in Philly is all electric, although I have seen diesel freight trains running on the same track, so there is no technical reason why electric passenger and diesel freight can't use the same track.

[NoOkie]

OK...let's have some fun instead of listening to me talk about the technical issues of rail tansit or the legal repercussions of NEPA. Here's a Google Earth image showing our potential commuter rail system...

I feel like that's very northside focused. And while I, as a Northsider, believe in my inherent superiority over anyone south of Reno( ), there's a big chunk of people that wouldn't be served by that layout.

[OKCisOK4me]

That's the only layout that has ever been discussed and historically, its a redo of what was done in the early 1900s. Only difference is commuter oriented vs. street cars/interurbans.

[Snowman]

I feel like that's very northside focused. And while I, as a Northsider, believe in my inherent superiority over anyone south of Reno( ), there's a big chunk of people that wouldn't be served by that layout.

That is where we have existing rail lines, why it is our easiest to implement system in cost and has no/little need for eminent domain than alternatives, plus most of the south traffic will probably be coming from Moore and Norman which theoretical stops for them are not in the image. Given an unlimited budget and ability to place track on a whim several paths would look different but compared to a lot of cities our hub/core is still much more centrally located for even route times. There is no getting around with the population we have in an area this large there are going to be a lot of people not near it no matter what type it is.

[Spartan]

I personally think we need a combination of simple commuter rail, enhanced streetcar, and LRT. I found it really intriguing just how cheap commuter rail could be, I didn't realize we could do it so cheaply. Edmond-Norman for $200 million (although the hub expansion will be a huge ticket) is fantastic and could easily be funded, probably with a 1-year participatory sales tax with just Edmond, OKC, Moore, and Norman...would likely generate the funding in just a year or so, esp if Big League City can generate $100 million in a year.

I still think the best mode to the airport is enhanced streetcar, and I like trying to do something with the boulevard to the fairgrounds, OR I also love the idea of enhanced streetcar branching out from Capitol Hill heading west across the inner south side. Remember enhanced streetcar is cost-efficient to build and can run up to 40 mph, we could probably do a dedicated lane in Grand Blvd which has a huge median or SW29th which has no underground utilities - hallelujah! lol.

I think LRT comes in with Classen-to-NW Expwy which would be very expensive, but also very justified with density and ridership. Even more expensive than simple LRT estimates because NW Expwy needs to be totally rebuilt to accommodate pedestrians, but that could be an incredible boon to that side of town. Think Peachtree in Atlanta..

So the key is to be open-minded, explore ALL potential fixed guideway rail models, and find the best option for each trip. I would also like to see us look at magnetic levitation, like the new trams in Bordeaux. Hopefully by the time this debate comes up for real, like the next 5-10 years, more cities will have tried it and we will have a lot more concrete info on that emerging form of fixed guideway that is actually very cost efficient. Watch Bordeaux..

[Hutch]

I think LRT comes in with Classen-to-NW Expwy which would be very expensive, but also very justified with density and ridership. Even more expensive than simple LRT estimates because NW Expwy needs to be totally rebuilt to accommodate pedestrians, but that could be an incredible boon to that side of town. Think Peachtree in Atlanta..

I agree...LRT from the Hub to Classen and out NW Expwy and possibly Hefner Parkway will likely make sense at some point from a ridership, population, medical, retail, and traffic perspective. If you look at the Intermodal Hub Master Plan, Jacobs included that as a future potential LRT line.

[ou48A]

I believe a huge key to ridership of any system is speed and frequency of service.

Since commuter rail is the cheapest and probably most realistic……
How long would it take to get from downtown OKC to OU?
How long would it take to get from Norman to the airport?

[Hutch]

Commuter rail in Philly is all electric, although I have seen diesel freight trains running on the same track, so there is no technical reason why electric passenger and diesel freight can't use the same track.

Electrification is a large part of the costs of LRT and would increase the cost of a commuter rail system significantly. If the money is there to do it, that's fine. However, it's not necessary. The new MPXpress diesel-electric commuter rail locomotives manufactured by Motive Power in Idaho have been the engine of choice in the last number of years for the new commuter rail systems in Albuquere, Salt Lake City, Minneapolis, SanFrancisco, Los Angeles, Toronto. They meet EPA Tier 2 emmissions standards and have significantly improved acceleration capabilities.

Check it out:

MPXpress

[Hutch]

...and Norman which theoretical stops for them are not in the image.

Expanded View:

[soonerguru]

The problem is that only Norman wants to do this to the max. The good news is that Edmond has been moderately supportive and Moore has recently gotten to that point (now that they have tax money to burn for amusement), but what they would help pay for is a cheaper HRT. I think these things will fall in the middle - perhaps Norman will take their zeal for rail to build a streetcar network of their own radiating out of their Amtrak station. The problem is that I think Norman is so much more interested in a rail connection to Downtown OKC because they so deeply underestimate their own urbanism, which imo is very promising.

I say this as a native of Norman and someone who is very fond of it, but Norman is clueless. It's astonishing how bad their urban planning seems to be.

[ou48A]

Expanded View:

It appears the Norman station is located at the current Main street Norman Amtrak station.

If the goal is to attract workers who commute to their jobs in OKC this is an extremely poor location and it will have very minimal ridership for commuters who work in OKC but live in Norman. Most Norman commuters to OKC live on the west side of town, central Norman is too congested for this to be practical for very many people.

In the time it takes me to drive to the main street train station from my location in Norman west of I-35 and Tecumseh I can drive and almost be parked in a downtown OKC location.

A park and ride facility with bus service needs to be built somewhere north of Robinson Street and maybe as far north as Tecumseh.
Otherwise this will not be a successful service to Norman and I would not support Norman’s participating in this venture.

I would be curious to know more about the proposed Sooner station.