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Thread: Friends for a Better Boulevard

  1. #151

    Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry OKC View Post
    Do you realize how many "simple overhead pedestrian walkways" you are talking about. That is going to add to the cost, much less take away from the attractive design they have going there. Would have to see the numbers on all of it to see if it is feasible not only to build as rendered but to maintain
    Ever seen those in Vegas ? Not much to them, and you'd just need a couple, one on 2 sides of your choice. You could go underground for that matter, then they wouldn't be unsightly and practically maintenance free. Just a simple tunnel.

  2. #152

    Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry OKC View Post
    Do you realize how many "simple overhead pedestrian walkways" you are talking about. That is going to add to the cost, much less take away from the attractive design they have going there. Would have to see the numbers on all of it to see if it is feasible not only to build as rendered but to maintain
    They are not talking about pedestrian overpasses and there are none in the rendering that I can see.

  3. #153

    Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    I am only aware of a few traffic circles this size that have people in the middle of them, and they get there via an underground walkway.

  4. Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    Quote Originally Posted by Just the facts View Post
    I am only aware of a few traffic circles this size that have people in the middle of them, and they get there via an underground walkway.
    Dupont Circle in Washington, DC is a good example of a heavily traveled traffic circle with significant pedestrian traffic.

    There are no underground walkways for pedestrians, but there is an underground road and subway that goes through it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dupont_Circle
    Click image for larger version. 

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  5. #155

    Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    Dupont Circle Google Earth Image

    Click image for larger version. 

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  6. #156

    Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    Quote Originally Posted by soonerliberal View Post
    Dupont Circle in Washington, DC is a good example of a heavily traveled traffic circle with significant pedestrian traffic.

    There are no underground walkways for pedestrians, but there is an underground road and subway that goes through it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dupont_Circle
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Nice one and a pretty good example. Thanks.

  7. Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    Quote Originally Posted by soonerliberal View Post
    Dupont Circle in Washington, DC is a good example of a heavily traveled traffic circle with significant pedestrian traffic.

    There are no underground walkways for pedestrians, but there is an underground road and subway that goes through it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dupont_Circle
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Exactly. Dupont Circle was actually the main inspiration for Market Circle.

  8. Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    Quote Originally Posted by Hutch View Post
    They are not talking about pedestrian overpasses and there are none in the rendering that I can see.
    Yeah, I don't know where that came from.

  9. #159

    Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    LJ, the non traffic circle option is the earthen ramp. That is the other choice. But if you are really convinced that the hard work put in by the Friends for a Better Boulevard movement is not the right course of action for the community, then you really should draw up an alternate proposal of a crazy 5-way intersection or what have you. Currently, the option you seek does not exist and will not unless you force it into the public discourse.

    As it is, any opposition to this will be seen as support for the earthen ramp, and I'm not sure you want your opposition to traffic circles misconstrued as support for the earthen ramp. I count myself firmly as a friend of the Better Boulevard.
    Spartan, it sounds like you have just designated yourself to be the arbitor of the choices. My opposition to both stands. I don't have the capabilites to draw up elaborate plans that some have posted but you can't convince me that an alternative isn't possible. As I've said before, I would even favor some kind of traffic square over a circle.

  10. Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    I'm not arbitrating, I'm just trying to bring this back down to reality, which I would argue the traffic circle has miraculously become a part of.

    What is a traffic square? I'm not familiar with this concept. What about a traffic trapezoid? Has a nice ring to it. (I kid, I kid)

  11. #161

    Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    I'm not arbitrating, I'm just trying to bring this back down to reality, which I would argue the traffic circle has miraculously become a part of.

    What is a traffic square? I'm not familiar with this concept. What about a traffic trapezoid? Has a nice ring to it. (I kid, I kid)
    When you tell me there are only two options, the one you favor and the one you oppose, that is being a little heavy handed. I still contend that people have become enamored by a beautiful depiction without considering all of the ramifications just as ODOT is enamored with their plans without considering all of the ramifications.

  12. Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    Quote Originally Posted by ljbab728 View Post
    When you tell me there are only two options, the one you favor and the one you oppose,
    Because those are the two options. I'm not being heavy handed ljbab, I'm leveling with you - you've done nothing to illicit heavy-handedness.

    You have to find a creative way to handle the convergence of all these streets. The only other feasible alternative that I can see is to not do the boulevard at all. However, I'd encourage people to look at downtown in 2012, and to stop looking at downtown in 2000 (C2S) and especially throw out plans based on the 1990 outlook (ODOT's basis here). That 2012 reality, that so few people have keyed in on, is that I really think the best development opportunity is the west side of downtown - it has traffic counts that don't exist anywhere else (bumper-to-bumper traffic on Western), and it has cheap real estate fronting Western - classic rent gap situation. I'm not saying to abandon C2S, I'm just saying that C2S needs to evolve to reflect the changes that have occurred in the last 10 years in order to be as successful as we all want.

    Then the bottom line, for me, becomes this - if you're wanting to put downtown's west side to the highest possible use to take advantage of this golden opportunity, you gotta do this traffic circle. It's such a natural way to build the world-class environment we're looking for.

    As for advocated of "returning to the street grid," I think you create and take advantage of new opportunities between Classen and Shields, however, west of the Market Circle, I think then you absolutely "return to the street grid" with Reno. That is a slight deviation from the plans drafted by Andrew but the engineering is workable, albeit complicated because you have to merge Reno and Exchange in the approach to ingress, preferably without demolishing a single building along Klein which is an incredibly urban street that frames the Farmer's Market amazingly well. That's a fantastic district waiting to emerge.

  13. #163

    Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    Because those are the two options. I'm not being heavy handed ljbab, I'm leveling with you - you've done nothing to illicit heavy-handedness.

    You have to find a creative way to handle the convergence of all these streets. The only other feasible alternative that I can see is to not do the boulevard at all. However, I'd encourage people to look at downtown in 2012, and to stop looking at downtown in 2000 (C2S) and especially throw out plans based on the 1990 outlook (ODOT's basis here). That 2012 reality, that so few people have keyed in on, is that I really think the best development opportunity is the west side of downtown - it has traffic counts that don't exist anywhere else (bumper-to-bumper traffic on Western), and it has cheap real estate fronting Western - classic rent gap situation. I'm not saying to abandon C2S, I'm just saying that C2S needs to evolve to reflect the changes that have occurred in the last 10 years in order to be as successful as we all want.

    Then the bottom line, for me, becomes this - if you're wanting to put downtown's west side to the highest possible use to take advantage of this golden opportunity, you gotta do this traffic circle. It's such a natural way to build the world-class environment we're looking for.

    As for advocated of "returning to the street grid," I think you create and take advantage of new opportunities between Classen and Shields, however, west of the Market Circle, I think then you absolutely "return to the street grid" with Reno. That is a slight deviation from the plans drafted by Andrew but the engineering is workable, albeit complicated because you have to merge Reno and Exchange in the approach to ingress, preferably without demolishing a single building along Klein which is an incredibly urban street that frames the Farmer's Market amazingly well. That's a fantastic district waiting to emerge.
    I still agree with your points except the traffic circle. There ARE NOT just two options just because you think that's true. You could put a square or even somewhat rectangular configuration in the area where you propose the traffic circle. That would be safer for both drivers and pedestrians and just as efficient, if not more so.

  14. Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    Can you take us beyond "I just don't like traffic circles?" Why are you so vehemently opposed to circles? Just curious..

  15. #165

    Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    Can you take us beyond "I just don't like traffic circles?" Why are you so vehemently opposed to circles? Just curious..
    Too many personal experiences, Spartan, both here and in Europe. I always feel I'm taking my life in my hands. A traffic circle isn't the end of the world and my life doesn't revolve around opposing them but I've had my say.

  16. #166

    Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    can you show any of us an example of a "traffic square" or "traffic rectangle" any where??

    and west of this area the BLVD is going to be on the old I40 alignment ..and that is pretty much written in stone

  17. #167

    Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderSooner View Post
    can you show any of us an example of a "traffic square" or "traffic rectangle" any where??

    and west of this area the BLVD is going to be on the old I40 alignment ..and that is pretty much written in stone
    Here are just a few off the top of my head:

    Lebanon, TN - downtown
    Washington D.C. - two are just east of the Captiol building.
    Savannah, GA - everywhere (more than you can shake a stick at)

  18. #168

    Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    Quote Originally Posted by Just the facts View Post
    Here are just a few off the top of my head:

    Bowling Green, KY - downtown
    Lebanon, TN - downtown
    Washington D.C. - two are just east of the Captiol building.
    Savannah, GA - everywhere (more than you can shake a stick at)
    ok how about 1 of the size to replace this traffic circle ..

  19. #169

    Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    I'm not sure why this guy is so vehemently against circles. No offense ljbab, but it sounds like a phobia. Lol. "Circlephobia". I just imagine some video of a guy losing his mind as he sees other cars circling ahead culminating into some sort of 3 Stooges style crash over an embankment.

    Personally, I think it's awesome Andrew put the effort forth. There's more inspiration and quite frankly detail, than we have seen attached to nearly anything else out there regarding anything else. Lol. Where are ODOT's renderings for their overpasses? Lol

  20. #170

    Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderSooner View Post
    ok how about 1 of the size to replace this traffic circle ..
    Trafalger Sq - Westminster/London

    nm - not a good example.

    I guess both of the ones in DC would be the best examples. Both are larger than Du Pont Ciricle but they are residnetial in nature and not commercial. Not sure if that is just the historic makeup of the areas or if the square/circle impacted the development pattern (i.e. do circles promote commercial development while square promote residential development, or is there no impact)

    Now that I think about it, maybe this why I can never spur retail/commerical development on my traffic squares in Sim City 3. And this whole time I though it was because SimCity 3 was still based on segregated zoning.

  21. #171

    Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderSooner View Post
    can you show any of us an example of a "traffic square" or "traffic rectangle" any where??
    The common courthouse square similar to those in Cordell or Boise City, OK. Check them out on Google Maps.

  22. #172

    Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    Quote Originally Posted by Buffalo Bill View Post
    The common courthouse square similar to those in Cordell or Boise City, OK. Check them out on Google Maps.
    Creek Council House [square] in Okmulgee, too.

  23. Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    Let's compromise and do an octagon...everybody wins =)

  24. #174

    Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    Quote Originally Posted by CuatrodeMayo View Post
    Let's compromise and do an octagon...everybody wins =)
    I say we base the decision on the role of an 8 side die. For the record, I prefer the circle - I was just answering the question that was asked.

  25. #175

    Default Re: Friends for a Better Boulevard

    Quote Originally Posted by CuatrodeMayo View Post
    Let's compromise and do an octagon...everybody wins =)

    Or...or...or:



    (everybody wins)

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