Downtown intervention needed NOW

[Spartan]

Downtown planning and civic leadership has gotten so inept and inefficient it is embarrassing. Everybody needs to drop their hard hats and walk away before more damage is done.

I think a very serious intervention is needed. We may never again successfully pull off a public works project until Wenger and Couch are long gone and nobody is promoted from within. I personally think a grassroots effort is needed to find a more innovative city manager and especially a more competent public works director.

I personally think we need Steve Mason to be our Public Works Director. Wenger is not working out. And of course, the biggest problem is when you have a city of 600,000 people where all the shots in City Hall are called by civil engineers and traffic engineers for whom a "tree" is a "fixed hazardous object." I think it's especially telling that the new central park consultants were chosen by a committee without a single urban planner on it.

MAPS3 has been bastardized to the point that many people who wanted quality of life and civic innovation, and not necessarily a chamber junta convention center, will probably never again support the renewal of the sales tax because the city broke its promise to put the convention center last.

I'd also like to bring Jeff Speck and the ULI panel back in to have them examine developments like the convention center separating two landmark green spaces, the City Arts Center locating as far as possible still within downtown from the Arts District, the demonstrative P180 screwups (now even the Myriad Gardens, where nothing works anymore, is fomenting buyer's remorse), demolishing historic buildings at a pace unprecedented since the 60s, and especially the planned I-40 Business Route through downtown, or as we like to call it, the "boulevard."

I just can't believe the fire storm of bad planning, mistakes, inept leadership, corrupt projects, and wasted opportunities. And I don't think we can wait long enough for a new generation to take over. We need immediate changes if we're going to rescue this thing.

The straw breaking the camel's back for me is how embarrassing it is to have P180 projects breaking down everywhere, those few that have been completed on time that is, while national TV crews are canvassing our city taking shots for the coming NBA finals. The past reaction to failed project management, ie MAPS1 coming in nearly $100 million over budget, was to promote Wenger to Public Works Director. I think it's time that the response for failure change from a promotion to a firing.

Laura Story is the city engineer responsible for P180. Wenger was the M3 project manager until the project had been bastardized enough to move the convention center ahead at the expense of other projects, and all the other MAPS projects under his watch came in massively over budget. Couch has been the longest-serving City Manager in OKC history and I think it's time for that to end. The problem is that all of this incompetent leadership is just following precedent, banishing new ideas, and can hardly be called "big league" in any sense of the phrase. These guys are little league and in waaaay over their heads.

If they're going to screw up every single project they touch, they should go to Tulsa instead, or anywhere.

[soonerguru]

Wow. You echo many of the points I made in the Myriad Gardens thread, and you're spot on. We need big league city leadership if we're going to attain big league status anytime soon. The situation seems dire, but you're right to suggest an intervention, because I don't believe it's too late to prevent further screwups.

Couch needs to go and he needs to be replaced with someone who is more transparent in his leadership and more knowledgeable about urban development concerns.

[Spartan]

Well it's just that these guys don't know how to react to a downtown where every night thousands of people ARE going to bed, and several more thousands of people are flocking to restaurants and entertainment downtown and NOT Memorial Road. This is new to them. They don't understand why so many people care all of a sudden, it's just beyond their level of comprehension. Why can't we just shut up and let them do their jobs to build a replica of I-240 in lieu of the boulevard we were told about.

Then the mayor cracks me up when he says..

Mayor Mick Cornett said he has known for several years that the boulevard would have to go above grade near that intersection, and that it would help concentrate development.

“I know it’s not necessarily been communicated throughout the community because not everybody cares that much about a road that’s several years away,” Cornett said.

http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/ar...reet-heat.html


Seriously, Mick?!? "Relax everybody, it will be okay, because I've actually known about this for years, no decades." People don't care about this boulevard so your City Hall is just going to lie and do whatever you want to and think there are no public repercussions for your legacy of utter failure and wasting ridiculous sums of money on projects that do more harm than good, then failing to find resources to commit to the projects that will help. How bout that railroad quiet zone that Humphreys promised as mayor, that the city identified as a key downtown priority back in 2000 for crissakes.

And as for Mick saying it's okay because he's known about this for years and he doesn't think anyone else cares - well maybe if he could sit us plebes down and inform the public without charging them $100 for a roundtable event catered by McAlister's, then "people would care" about the boulevard design process. Unbelievable.

As for "concentrating development," nothing does the trick for that like preventing the development altogether and eliminating the best opportunities for private development. Guess he is at least right there.

[blangtang]

Okay so we are gonna get rid of Mayor McCornett and this Public Works director and the City Manager. I don't have a problem with that.

[Spartan]

I thought this was a really profound quote from another thread, although I would never say anything this strong myself:

This really is dumbfounding. The city is constantly willing to delay services (e.g., lighting, fountain) weeks for a later date as if NOW (which coincides with the most publicity the city will ever receive) doesn't matter. This city is run like a corrupt 3rd world country.

Whether you would insult corrupt 3rd world countries like that or not, the point is that if the public image of City Hall is this bad, some changes are needed.

[mmonroe]

HERE HERE!

[BoulderSooner]

huge overreaction

[LakeEffect]

huge overreaction

Nick is too young to know what tact is.

[Larry OKC]

Somewhere between Spartan's in-your-face (although I agree with the sentiment) response and the City's/Thunder ownership over-reaction to the Thunder Alley solution.

I have never been a fan of Couch and agree he should have been dismissed from when he was in charge of the original MAPS projects and everything came in significantly over budget. Then somehow he got promoted to City Manager. Nothing against Mr. Wenger personally as he seems to be a nice enough guy, but I questioned his ability when Couch made him MAPS 3 program manager citing his successes as program manager of a couple of the MAPS projects, saying he had a track record with those of being on time and on budget (neither were true). Then there have been the multiple mis-steps with MAPS 3 and somehow Wenger gets promoted yet again? I'm not sure if it is all Wenger's fault, but rather since he answers to Couch, that may be where the blame really lies. If couch was removed, then maybe Wenger could do his job???? So I am still willing to give Wenger the benefit of a doubt.

To those that think an intervention isn't needed, maybe you thought the Thunder's first coach was fired hastily? Then we wouldn't have had Brooks as head coach and maybe we wouldn't be in the NBA Finals right now??? Same here, MAPS 3 is to crucial to the City to wait until it is a royal cluster**** and beyond saving.

[Spartan]

Why do you guys accept and rationalize these things?

[Just the facts]

Spartan - I feel your pain. Unfortunately, old habits die hard and OKC is just starting down a road the other cities have been on for centuries. In the end basic economics will win the day and we simply won't be able to afford to keep facilitating and expanding suburbia. Keep the faith.

On a related note – Jacksonville has very similar setup to what OKC is planning. On the eastside of downtown Jax we have two approach ramps that funnel traffic onto the Hart Bridge. The elevated freeway has done nothing to concentrate development. People traveling in that direction have only one thing on their mind – get home as fast as they can. They have zero interest in slowing down for yellow lights or doing any window shopping from the driver’s seat.

[Spartan]

Well I just don't think I'm the only one for whom these slip ups causes pain. I tend to think there are a lot of people who are getting tired of watching this City Hall screw up everything for so many years. That said, I think I've been very good at labeling some things a success and some things a failure - the point I'm making is that not everything has been a "failure," the incidence of failed projects has just been out of control since MAPS3 began, but there is no reason we shouldn't expect better of every single project. We shouldn't have to just shake our heads and hope City Hall gets the next project right when their track record has gotten truly atrocious lately.

[MustangGT]

The solution is simple. Vote Mayor Mick out at the next election and vote any continuance of MAPS taxes DOWN until he, Couch, Wegner, and the complete city council is gone.

Now wasn't that easy?

[lindsey]

I would NEVER vote no on MAPS taxes - just saying.

[Larry OKC]

MustangGT: But that wouldn't be an immediate intervention...would take time and the damage already done...Cornett won't be up for re-election (presuming he will run again) until 2014(?)...a MAPS 3 continuance/MAPS 4 vote wouldn't happen until 2017...various Council seats will be up, but I think it is same timing as Cornett for the earliest(?)...then there is the matter of Couch & Wenger, they aren't directly responsible to the voters...if not mistaken, Couch reports directly to the Council and Wenger reports to Couch...only by applying pressure to the COuncil & Mayor to change those other things (until they can be replaced at the ballot box), can things change sooner rather than later

[kevinpate]

I would NEVER vote no on MAPS taxes - just saying.

NEVER is such a big word in a world full of potential for bait and switch.

[Midtowner]

Okay so we are gonna get rid of Mayor McCornett and this Public Works director and the City Manager. I don't have a problem with that.

Your big problem is that politically, the only folks running against the mayor are these wacked out conservabots who want to eliminate all but "core functions" of city government. Okay, so we have Shadid. I think he's one of the good guys, but the focus shouldn't be on the mayor, but rather the Council. The Council is the only group which has the ability to replace the City Manager, and frankly, I'm not all that convinced we have a problem. MAPS III has barely just begun. To bemoan the failure of these projects is a tad premature.

[OklahomaNick]

To bemoan the failure of these projects is a tad premature.

Couldn't agree more.. Another over reactive emotional post from Spartan.

[Spartan]

MAPS III has barely just begun. To bemoan the failure of these projects is a tad premature.

I disagree. We know the plans and we want better plans. What I don't understand is that virtually every single person who knows anything about urban planning is in agreement that this is a disastrous CC site. Once you spend $250 million to realize a bad plan, that is too late.

I agree that the conservabots are an issue as well, but even they get that if you eliminate the best sites for private development (esp a site where a developer, Fred Hall and Bob Howard, announced plans to build a huge private development) you're screwing the pooch. Mike Carrier, who has been calling many of the shots on the CC project, thinks that all of the wives of attendees in his CC palace will go to Penn Square to shop.

That's the level of decision making here. The problem is that these disastrous plans have to be stopped or we will be writing books about them 30 years from now, just like Lackmeyer has his books about urban renewal and the Skirvin, just as people have written books about Robert Moses tearing down much of NY for highways. We will spend $250 million to do major harm to downtown, and get a worthless CC out of it, if we don't stop these guys who have broken every single MAPS3 campaign promise and changed the deal - it's 4 or 5 guys who are calling the shots, and Mick serves them, not us.

[Midtowner]

The mayor is just the chairman of the Council and a hugely popular one at that. I'm not sure why you focus your ire on him. Here's the Catch 22 you find yourself in--the majority of our Council is dominated by what I would call Chamber-of-Commerce Republicans. These are gentlemen who for the most part go where the OKC Golf & Country Club crowd tell them to. Trouble is, as you have pointed out, neither the OKC G&CC folks nor their pet councilmen (and woman) understand or see the value of urban planning, but I don't agree that they can't be educated. Get rid of them and you're not going to elect progressive urbanites, your alternative is going to be the Fairview Baptist crowd. Nutters who have run on a 'cut government to the bone' platform. Want to usher in the next dark age for the city?

Instead of going to war and trying to go all tabula rasa with our municipal government, I'd rather just press for the Alliance folks hire a real live urban planning consultant. The benefits of good planning speak for themselves. I don't see a malicious intent, just an ignorant one which is for some reason hostile to outside input. See lower Bricktown.

[rcjunkie]

I disagree. We know the plans and we want better plans. What I don't understand is that virtually every single person who knows anything about urban planning is in agreement that this is a disastrous CC site. Once you spend $250 million to realize a bad plan, that is too late.

I agree that the conservabots are an issue as well, but even they get that if you eliminate the best sites for private development (esp a site where a developer, Fred Hall and Bob Howard, announced plans to build a huge private development) you're screwing the pooch. Mike Carrier, who has been calling many of the shots on the CC project, thinks that all of the wives of attendees in his CC palace will go to Penn Square to shop.

That's the level of decision making here. The problem is that these disastrous plans have to be stopped or we will be writing books about them 30 years from now, just like Lackmeyer has his books about urban renewal and the Skirvin, just as people have written books about Robert Moses tearing down much of NY for highways. We will spend $250 million to do major harm to downtown, and get a worthless CC out of it, if we don't stop these guys who have broken every single MAPS3 campaign promise and changed the deal - it's 4 or 5 guys who are calling the shots, and Mick serves them, not us.

Just curious, from what Unversity did you receive your planning degree ?

[OKCisOK4me]

I think if Nick has the skills necessary to facilitate his vision then he should do his best to become a visionary urban planner for our great city. Problem is, I think he's a generation or two too late and by the time he gets in there, it'll be worthless (thru his eyes).

[GaryOKC6]

Downtown planning and civic leadership has gotten so inept and inefficient it is embarrassing. Everybody needs to drop their hard hats and walk away before more damage is done.

I think a very serious intervention is needed. We may never again successfully pull off a public works project until Wenger and Couch are long gone and nobody is promoted from within. I personally think a grassroots effort is needed to find a more innovative city manager and especially a more competent public works director.

I personally think we need Steve Mason to be our Public Works Director. Wenger is not working out. And of course, the biggest problem is when you have a city of 600,000 people where all the shots in City Hall are called by civil engineers and traffic engineers for whom a "tree" is a "fixed hazardous object." I think it's especially telling that the new central park consultants were chosen by a committee without a single urban planner on it.

MAPS3 has been bastardized to the point that many people who wanted quality of life and civic innovation, and not necessarily a chamber junta convention center, will probably never again support the renewal of the sales tax because the city broke its promise to put the convention center last.

I'd also like to bring Jeff Speck and the ULI panel back in to have them examine developments like the convention center separating two landmark green spaces, the City Arts Center locating as far as possible still within downtown from the Arts District, the demonstrative P180 screwups (now even the Myriad Gardens, where nothing works anymore, is fomenting buyer's remorse), demolishing historic buildings at a pace unprecedented since the 60s, and especially the planned I-40 Business Route through downtown, or as we like to call it, the "boulevard."

I just can't believe the fire storm of bad planning, mistakes, inept leadership, corrupt projects, and wasted opportunities. And I don't think we can wait long enough for a new generation to take over. We need immediate changes if we're going to rescue this thing.

The straw breaking the camel's back for me is how embarrassing it is to have P180 projects breaking down everywhere, those few that have been completed on time that is, while national TV crews are canvassing our city taking shots for the coming NBA finals. The past reaction to failed project management, ie MAPS1 coming in nearly $100 million over budget, was to promote Wenger to Public Works Director. I think it's time that the response for failure change from a promotion to a firing.

Laura Story is the city engineer responsible for P180. Wenger was the M3 project manager until the project had been bastardized enough to move the convention center ahead at the expense of other projects, and all the other MAPS projects under his watch came in massively over budget. Couch has been the longest-serving City Manager in OKC history and I think it's time for that to end. The problem is that all of this incompetent leadership is just following precedent, banishing new ideas, and can hardly be called "big league" in any sense of the phrase. These guys are little league and in waaaay over their heads.

If they're going to screw up every single project they touch, they should go to Tulsa instead, or anywhere.

If you really want to change it then you should run for office. You and Ed Shadid can team up. Let me know if you would like information on how to filr and run a campaign.

[OklahomaNick]

I think if Nick has the skills necessary to facilitate his vision then he should do his best to become a visionary urban planner for our great city. Problem is, I think he's a generation or two too late and by the time he gets in there, it'll be worthless (thru his eyes).

huh?

[ljbab728]

huh?

The reference wasn't to you. It was to Spartan (Nick).