Streetcar

[adaniel]

That's awesome that the city of Norman would be on board. I imagine that Cleveland County would be supportive of this considering that the I-35 corridor is the only major freeway in OKC that is starting to become really congested.

I'm not familiar with it, but how would a regional rail authority work from a tax perspective? I know with DART, individual cities must vote for a sales tax of 0.25 cents. Has anyone decided how much money will be needed?

[BoulderSooner]

That's awesome that the city of Norman would be on board. I imagine that Cleveland County would be supportive of this considering that the I-35 corridor is the only major freeway in OKC that is starting to become really congested.

I'm not familiar with it, but how would a regional rail authority work from a tax perspective? I know with DART, individual cities must vote for a sales tax of 0.25 cents. Has anyone decided how much money will be needed?

The Association of Central Oklahoma Governments (ACOG), in coordination with and on behalf of the cities of Del City, Edmond, Midwest City, Moore, Norman, and Oklahoma City, is seeking proposals from qualified firms to conduct an Alternatives Analysis for each of the three commuter corridors in Central Oklahoma. ACOG has budgeted $1,250,000 in total for this study. The corridors are as follows: Edmond to downtown Oklahoma City, Norman to downtown Oklahoma City, and Midwest City (Tinker AFB) to downtown Oklahoma City.


this will be the first step .. in the process ... as far as funding goes there is more than one way ... city wide taxes or corridor wide taxes .. that is very much TBD

[Urban Pioneer]

is seeking proposals from qualified firms to conduct an Alternatives Analysis for each of the three commuter corridors in Central Oklahoma.

They selected URS. At least it is in contract negotiation.

[Hutch]

OKCisOK4me wasn't suggesting Union Station be the Hub, but the Cotton Mill site, right??

BoulderSooner: To clarify...in an ideal world I would swap the Union and Santa Fe station buildings (because at least from the outside, the Union Station is much more attractive)...while I know that Union Station isn't feasible as the Hub, it could still be utilized for rail purposes and be a destination stop (instead of it being offices)...just a logical place for a streetcar stop and even a mini-hub with Park related transportation like bike rentals etc. It definitely needs to be more than just a nice looking back drop for the Park. A streetcar stop would go a long way towards doing that. And regarding the comment about 1972ford's suggested route not connecting to the Hub, it doesn't needed anyway since Urban folks are going to be walking anyway, just have them walk the 3 blocks to the Hub too.

Betts, thank you for responding, since you are on the committee and given our past agreement on it, I was wondering what happened. I realize track is limited with MAPS 3 so why not ditch all of the double track nonsense around the southern end of things (make it bidirectional) and you can get the needed track to make it to Union Station???

A few comments to clear things up...

The Cotton Mill site was one of the sites evaluated in ACOG's Intermodal Hub Study last year conducted by Jacobs Engineering. The site did not score as high as the combined Santa Fe site properties for the future hub for a number of reasons...cost...connectivity...operational staging...walkability and pedestrian issues...sense of place.

Thanks to the Crosstown design, Union Station has only room for one mainline freight track and one siding track. The only possible use of the facility now from a rail transit perspective would be as a simple stop for commuter trains running between OKC and Yukon. However, even that may not be practical from a cost perspective due to the costs required to access and develop the now below-grade rail area. Further, with the intermodal hub being located only blocks away, the number of persons who would be boarding or offloading at that stop would probably be minimal, at best, and not justify the costs of developing a stop there. Sorry to say, but Union Station has most likely been permanently eliminated as a functioning rail station of any kind. Maybe it can at least be tranformed into a rail and local history museum.

Obviously, based on the facts above, there is no need to connect to the streetcar to Union Station for rail connectivity purposes. And there's no sense to waste track mileage any further south of the Boulevard until both the Park and Core to Shore are well on there way to being developed. Until then, there's simply not going to be ridership of any significance to justify servicing that area as part of the initial streetcar route.

[Larry OKC]

Isn't it better to compromise and try to attend to both? Norman might be 10 years away but I would hazard a guess that the line to Del City, Midwest City, and Tinker might occur much sooner. Rail is permanent. Why would we want to tear up a system that is supposed to be permanent?

Plus again, can't people walk to Union Station through our beautiful new park to get there anyways? Were talking about a 2 -3 block walk from a station stop that is within eyesight? Why would we circumvent encouraging people from walking by taking them up to the front door as if it were a Walmart?

But it doesn't look like we are even attempting to do both, it looks like clipping the corner of the Park was a happy coincidence by hitting the Convention Center and Arena. Of course they can walk 3 blocks, but by the same token why are you routing the streetcar through the Hub, why not just get within 3 blocks and call it good? Not talking about tearing anything up

Larry - downtown offices exist right now. Who do you envision getting on and off at Union Station?

And how are those in those DT offices getting to the Hub? The commuter rail doesn't exist yet and won't for quite a while even by best case scenario???

[Hutch]

That's awesome that the city of Norman would be on board. I imagine that Cleveland County would be supportive of this considering that the I-35 corridor is the only major freeway in OKC that is starting to become really congested.

I'm not familiar with it, but how would a regional rail authority work from a tax perspective? I know with DART, individual cities must vote for a sales tax of 0.25 cents. Has anyone decided how much money will be needed?

The fact is there is now significant support both publicly and politically in Norman, Emdond, Midwest City, Del City and OKC for a regional rail transit system. In addition to the Commuter Rail Study (Alternatives Analysys) for the Norman to OKC, Edmond to OKC and Midwest City/Tinker AFB to OKC corridor that ACOG is about to commence, ACOG is also preparing to begin Regional Transit Dialogue II, which will bring municipal officials and other community leaders together for a year-long planning process to lay the groundwork for creating, governing, funding and operating a regional transit system, including commuter rail between the mentioned cities.

RTD II is in follow-up to the original RTD discussions that took place in 2009-2010. That process resulted in some very good planning recommendations, including how to best fund the future system. Unlike DART, which made their efforts much more difficult by seeking a vote to be in or out of the system on a city-by-city basis, the Governance-Finance Committee of RTD recommended using a special regional transit district approach, such as in place in Denver. Under that plan, a Regional Transit Authority (RTA) is created between the various municipalities who will be served by the system. The RTA then creates a regional transit district, which overlaps City and County limits and is carefully drawn to cover the primary transit corridors and the main population and employment density areas along those corridors. The RTA then holds a referendum vote to fund the district, usually through additional sales tax collected from within the district. Only those voters living within the district vote for the proposisition and the measures passes or fails based on the overall vote of the district and not on a city-by-city or county-by-county basis. Once the permanent dedicated funding source is approved, the RTA can begin issuing bonds based on the future revenue stream and can immediately begin development and construction of the regional transit system.

If everything continues to go well from a public and political rail transit support perspective, we may be 5 years away from voting to fund a regional transit system and 10 years away until its fully-operational.

[OKCisOK4me]

I consider myself a railbuff but when it comes to commuter rail I have only one question...do the sets operate on BNSF or UP existing tracks or is a new roadbed, track, rails and ballast laid down in their ROW (right of way)?

[Urban Pioneer]

But it doesn't look like we are even attempting to do both, it looks like clipping the corner of the Park was a happy coincidence by hitting the Convention Center and Arena. Of course they can walk 3 blocks, but by the same token why are you routing the streetcar through the Hub, why not just get within 3 blocks and call it good? Not talking about tearing anything up

And how are those in those DT offices getting to the Hub? The commuter rail doesn't exist yet and won't for quite a while even by best case scenario???

I swear Larry, you are confusing the hell out of people and grating on my nerves. Short of the consultants saying its a bad route when they go into engineering because we've missed something or utilities too costly to move are in the way, it is what it is.

Let's move on. We're getting a streetcar. Its not designed the way you want it. Get over it.

[Hutch]

I realize track is limited with MAPS 3 so why not ditch all of the double track nonsense around the southern end of things (make it bidirectional) and you can get the needed track to make it to Union Station???

Most modern streetcars run in the lane of traffic...and in the same direction as the traffic. You don't run streetcars opposing the direction of traffic. The only place you can operate bi-directionally is within a center median and out of the flow of traffic. But that's not often practical. Even then, you're required to double track sections of the route in order to allow for streetcars to pass each other. Go take a look at all of the modern streetcar systems in the US...either in operation or planned for development...they employ either couplet or double-track designs or a combination of both.

[Urban Pioneer]

nm

[Hutch]

I consider myself a railbuff but when it comes to commuter rail I have only one question...do the sets operate on BNSF or UP existing tracks or is a new roadbed, track, rails and ballast laid down in their ROW (right of way)?

In order to operate commuter rail within the metropolitan area, BNSF and UP will require double-tracking (two main lines in addition to existing sidings) within their right-of-way. That will involve widening beds and installing additional mainline tracks, not to mention widening of single track bridges. Obviously those will be the major costs involved in developing commuter rail.

[Tier2City]

Since there won't be any tunneling involved, rail overbridges will be the biggest civil engineering expense for developing the commuter rail system. So it's imperative to make sure we maximize any opportunities to make huge future savings when such bridges are being reconstructed now or in the near future. Anybody know of any upcoming examples?

[Spartan]

Since there won't be any tunneling involved, rail overbridges will be the biggest civil engineering expense for developing the commuter rail system. So it's imperative to make sure we maximize any opportunities to make huge future savings when such bridges are being reconstructed now or in the near future. Anybody know of any upcoming examples?

Are you implying that anything in ODOT's I-235/I-44 redesign will preclude commuter rail?

[Tier2City]

I'll defer to Hutch on that one....

[Hutch]

Are you implying that anything in ODOT's I-235/I-44 redesign will preclude commuter rail?

ODOT wil be replacing the BNSF bridge over I-235 near 50th street as part of the project. The bridge is currently a single-track design. A double-track bridge will be required at some point in the future for commuter rail service between Edmond and OKC. However ODOT has refused both BNSF's and OKC's request to provide a new double-track bridge at this time. Instead they will only replace the current bridge with a new single-track structure. Their position is that if and when a second track is needed, an additional bridge can be built at that time. The result is that it will cost us millions of dollars more and create major traffic inconveniences to build an additional bridge in the future compared to the cost to replace the current bridge with a double-track design now. At the very least, ODOT should be constructing the substructure portion of the new single-track bridge now so that it will accomodate the additional superstructure components for a future double-track bridge. And they need to ensure that the grade for the new highway allows for minimum clearance requirements when the bridge is widened in the future. Otherwise, millions of dollars more would be required to tear up the highway and drop the grade to allow for the necessary clearance. Unfortunately, I'm not aware that they are doing any of that.

On a related note, this is the same problem we're facing with ODOT's new boulevard construction that will go below grade under the elevated BNSF lines. The current elevated BNSF right-of-way at that location provides for 4 tracks. ODOT currently is planning to build a new railroad bridge over the boulevard at that location that also has 4 tracks. The problam is the Intermodal Hub Master Plan that was finalized last year requires an additional width of approximately 30 feet on the east side of the bridge in order to provide for a 5th track to serve Phase 3 expansion requirements of the hub facility. Again, millions of dollars could be saved and major traffic inconveniences avoided by incorporatiog the additional bridge width now as opposed to doing it in the future. At the very least, ODOT should be constructing the substructure portion of the new single-track bridge now so that it will accomodate the additional superstructure components for expanding the bridge in the future. And, they certainly need to ensure that the grade for the new boulevard allows for minimum clearance requirements when the bridge is widened to the east in the future. Otherwise, millions of dollars more would be required to tear up the boulevard and drop the grade to provide the necessary clearance. Unfortunately, I'm not sure they are planning for any of that.

If this sounds like a broken record, believe me it is. And somebody needs to fix it or we'll continue to be stuck in the 20th century of transportation.

[Spartan]

However ODOT has refused both BNSF's and OKC's request to provide a new double-track bridge at this time.

Sigh...

If this sounds like a broken record, believe me it is. And somebody needs to fix it or we'll continue to be stuck in the 20th century of transportation.

If I said this it would be "he's too young to know tact." Hopefully with you, people will clearly see a transportation expert who is frustrated with inept leadership, bad project management, and a concerted effort from City Hall and ODOT to keep OKC in the 1990s.

[Just the facts]

Sounds like ODOT is more interested in ensuring future employment than they are in building an efficient and cost effective transit network. A single lane of track can carry the same capacity as 15 lanes of interstate, but 15 lanes of interstate keeps ODOT busier.

[Spartan]

The only accusation I would defend City Hall against is corrupt. ODOT, however, is corrupt. I know it's pretty toxic to say you agree with Tom Elmore on anything, but he was right about a great deal, unfortunately. ODOT is destroying rail connections wherever they can.

[jedicurt]

Sounds like ODOT is more interested in ensuring future employment than they are in building an efficient and cost effective transit network.

sadly there is a lot of truth to that... and it's in all things... i remember on highway 412 of ODOT replacing some bridges between Mooreland and just north of Fairview as bridges for the two lane road at the time... and then were ripping them out just 2 years later to make way for larger bridges that were already planned to be done when the process of widening those roads took place. so they were ripping out 2 year old bridges to make way for larger ones instead of just planning ahead

[ou48A]

It sounds like we need some attention from the states news media and from our political leaders on the way ODOT is managed.
Perhaps we should let our views be known on this issue to the right officials?

[Larry OKC]

Sorry about the honest questioning/constructive criticism and asking that the same rational be used... I was hoping for the best with the streetcar, enjoyed the debate/exchange of ideas and it looked like we were headed that way and then this...sigh

[Spartan]

It sounds like we need some attention from the states news media and from our political leaders on the way ODOT is managed.
Perhaps we should let our views be known on this issue to the right officials?

Shyea, good luck. This place is hopeless.

[Hutch]

Sounds like ODOT is more interested in ensuring future employment than they are in building an efficient and cost effective transit network.

It's simpler than that. They are only interested in building highways and bridges that move cars and trucks from point A to point B. They have no interest in rail transit. If you've ever been to ODOT's headquarters west of the capitol, you know how big the building is. The entire "Rail Division" is located in a tiny office tucked away in one of the corners of the facility. It would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

[Spartan]

It's simpler than that. They are only interested in building highways and bridges that move cars and trucks from point A to point B. They have no interest in rail transit. If you've ever been to ODOT's headquarters west of the capitol, you know how big the building is. The entire "Rail Division" is located in a tiny office tucked away in one of the corners of the facility. It would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

Not to mention that our entire state capitol complex exists in the middle of what is basically a highway interchange. Have I mentioned that we are so hopeless?

[BoulderSooner]

Not to mention that our entire state capitol complex exists in the middle of what is basically a highway interchange. Have I mentioned that we are so hopeless?

we are so far from "hopeless" ...... this is a great time in our cities history .. and a great time to live in OKC