Streetcar

[Watson410]

What's the latest news on the commuter rails going to Midwest City area? They said it was shovel ready, when is that suppose to start?

[Cocaine]

I've never even heard about that.

[Snowman]

What's the latest news on the commuter rails going to Midwest City area? They said it was shovel ready, when is that suppose to start?

Even if it may be shovel ready it is not funded and probably will be years after the downtown streetcar is open before they might start.

[Spartan]

We'll just say it's not a priority.

[Urban Pioneer]

What's the latest news on the commuter rails going to Midwest City area? They said it was shovel ready, when is that suppose to start?

We may spend some MAPS funds to purchase Union Pacific's track between Santa-Fe station and their Harter Yard. That is a critical "pinch point" that is required to be preserved for both the NE "Adventure Line" and the Midwest City connection. But it requires crossing the UP "mainline" and that may require a flyover. A new bridge over Crutcho Creek and the Oklahoma River is also required.

Still, this is the most "doable" line (other than the NE line) because of its short distance and the broad political support for it at each end. These design issues are about to be studied in detail in ACOG's Alternatives Analysis, which is about to be ramped up with URS as consultant.

I'd say, look 2-3 years out before you see that process completed. The MAPS acquisition of the UP track is a huge issue though that is ongoing. I'm actually working on that this weekend.

[OKCisOK4me]

UP working on UP. Awesome ;-)

[Watson410]

We may spend some MAPS funds to purchase Union Pacific's track between Santa-Fe station and their Harter Yard. That is a critical "pinch point" that is required to be preserved for both the NE "Adventure Line" and the Midwest City connection. But it requires crossing the UP "mainline" and that may require a flyover. A new bridge over Crutcho Creek and the Oklahoma River is also required.

Still, this is the most "doable" line (other than the NE line) because of its short distance and the broad political support for it at each end. These design issues are about to be studied in detail in ACOG's Alternatives Analysis, which is about to be ramped up with URS as consultant.

I'd say, look 2-3 years out before you see that process completed. The MAPS acquisition of the UP track is a huge issue though that is ongoing. I'm actually working on that this weekend.

Awesome! Thanks for the update!

[betts]

Originally Posted by betts
Can we leave out Union Station? I'll be interested to see the ultimate route, but I think you've almost got to run the line there, or you've left Core to Shore completely without access.

Originally Posted by betts
I disagree. Expanding this line will be a slow process. Union Station will be an integral part of Core to Shore, and the park is part of the first phase of Core to Shore. We've already learned that development follows street car lines. One of the best ways to stimulate development in that area is with the street car line. One of the best ways to ensure that our Central Park doesn't become a Will Rogers Park.....out of the way, difficult to access and thus underutilized....is to make it easily accessible immediately. None of the area the line will serve really qualifies as significantly "denser" or "more populated" right now anyway.

Larry, you are right. I wanted the street car to either go into the park, or at least alongside it. And all things being equal, I would still like more access to the park than we have planned. However, in looking at our finite number of track miles, I think the route we have come up with maximizes connectivity given our budget. Life is a compromise, but I'm happy with the compromises we've made in the subcommittee.

[OKCisOK4me]

In time, if the commuter spur to Tinker works well, then, hopefully by that time, there will be an extension of the streetcar to Union Station. That doesn't seem like the best laid plan, which is why I believe the cotton mill site would be the ultimate prime location for a transportation center.

I like the short term use of the Santa Fe station for North/South high speed connectivity but an ideological spot for all directions hub would be that factory spot.

[1972ford]

the green lines are my idea on it and the blue are lines that I moved. gives the park more coverage as well as the western side of downtown. This would help stimulate the area to the west of walker that is just run down. Gives us betetr access to the ballpark as well as service to reno in bricktown as well as sheridan. Overall is will add some track but should not be too much I don't think. Oh and there would also be rail from broadway to gaylord on sheridan.

It would add maybe 1/2 mile of track and cover a much larger area

[BoulderSooner]

In time, if the commuter spur to Tinker works well, then, hopefully by that time, there will be an extension of the streetcar to Union Station. That doesn't seem like the best laid plan, which is why I believe the cotton mill site would be the ultimate prime location for a transportation center.

I like the short term use of the Santa Fe station for North/South high speed connectivity but an ideological spot for all directions hub would be that factory spot.

union station won't ever be the hub .. santa fe will be the hub for 50+ years ... and the track to tinker comes from the santa fe going east north of bricktown ... why would we go to union station? ?

[BoulderSooner]

the green lines are my idea on it and the blue are lines that I moved. gives the park more coverage as well as the western side of downtown. This would help stimulate the area to the west of walker that is just run down. Gives us betetr access to the ballpark as well as service to reno in bricktown as well as sheridan. Overall is will add some track but should not be too much I don't think. Oh and there would also be rail from broadway to gaylord on sheridan.

It would add maybe 1/2 mile of track and cover a much larger area

except your route doesn't connect to the HUB

[Larry OKC]

OKCisOK4me wasn't suggesting Union Station be the Hub, but the Cotton Mill site, right??

BoulderSooner: To clarify...in an ideal world I would swap the Union and Santa Fe station buildings (because at least from the outside, the Union Station is much more attractive)...while I know that Union Station isn't feasible as the Hub, it could still be utilized for rail purposes and be a destination stop (instead of it being offices)...just a logical place for a streetcar stop and even a mini-hub with Park related transportation like bike rentals etc. It definitely needs to be more than just a nice looking back drop for the Park. A streetcar stop would go a long way towards doing that. And regarding the comment about 1972ford's suggested route not connecting to the Hub, it doesn't needed anyway since Urban folks are going to be walking anyway, just have them walk the 3 blocks to the Hub too.

Betts, thank you for responding, since you are on the committee and given our past agreement on it, I was wondering what happened. I realize track is limited with MAPS 3 so why not ditch all of the double track nonsense around the southern end of things (make it bidirectional) and you can get the needed track to make it to Union Station???

[ou48A]

We may spend some MAPS funds to purchase Union Pacific's track between Santa-Fe station and their Harter Yard. That is a critical "pinch point" that is required to be preserved for both the NE "Adventure Line" and the Midwest City connection. But it requires crossing the UP "mainline" and that may require a flyover. A new bridge over Crutcho Creek and the Oklahoma River is also required.

Still, this is the most "doable" line (other than the NE line) because of its short distance and the broad political support for it at each end. These design issues are about to be studied in detail in ACOG's Alternatives Analysis, which is about to be ramped up with URS as consultant.

I'd say, look 2-3 years out before you see that process completed. The MAPS acquisition of the UP track is a huge issue though that is ongoing. I'm actually working on that this weekend.

Very Good Stuff.

Is there anything of substance happing to make commuter rail a reality from Norman to Edmond?
What time frame would we be looking at?

Thanks.

[Urban Pioneer]

Very Good Stuff.

Is there anything of substance happing to make commuter rail a reality from Norman to Edmond?
What time frame would we be looking at?

Thanks.

I bet Norman is no earlier than 10 years away from riding something. Mayor Cindy Rosenthal is highly supportive among other important Norman people on council and various committees. Its going to take forming a Regional Transit Authority, probably some kind of multi-county vote for a funding source, and potentially federal help depending on the cost.

So fairly complicated. The good news is that there is desire for such a connection on both ends of the line. You have Moore in the middle, of which I am not certain of their level of support.

Hutch, want to add anthing?

[Urban Pioneer]

I realize track is limited with MAPS 3 so why not ditch all of the double track nonsense around the southern end of things (make it bidirectional) and you can get the needed track to make it to Union Station???

Again future commuters going to their jobs after transferring to streetcar at the Santa-Fe Hub don't want to go a on a pleasure trip past the front door of Union Station.

We all agree its a cool building, but its not a working train station anymore and there is not and probably continue not to be anything to transfer to.

[Larry OKC]

Since future commuters are just that, future commuters, why not deal with any expansion plans that would get them directly to where ever they are working when the time comes? Isn't commuter rail several years if not decades away from becoming reality? The Park is being built now (relatively speaking) so it makes more sense to take care of current needs and plan for future needs when they are needed. Now if you have the luxury of building for future needs in advance, that is great, but it shouldn't be at the expense of the current needs. IMHO

[Urban Pioneer]

Since future commuters are just that, future commuters, why not deal with any expansion plans that would get them directly to where ever they are working when the time comes? Isn't commuter rail several years if not decades away from becoming reality? The Park is being built now (relatively speaking) so it makes more sense to take care of current needs and plan for future needs when they are needed. Now if you have the luxury of building for future needs in advance, that is great, but it shouldn't be at the expense of the current needs. IMHO

Isn't it better to compromise and try to attend to both? Norman might be 10 years away but I would hazard a guess that the line to Del City, Midwest City, and Tinker might occur much sooner. Rail is permanent. Why would we want to tear up a system that is supposed to be permanent?

Plus again, can't people walk to Union Station through our beautiful new park to get there anyways? Were talking about a 2 -3 block walk from a station stop that is within eyesight? Why would we circumvent encouraging people from walking by taking them up to the front door as if it were a Walmart?

[Just the facts]

Larry - downtown offices exist right now. Who do you envision getting on and off at Union Station?

[OKCisOK4me]

union station won't ever be the hub .. santa fe will be the hub for 50+ years ... and the track to tinker comes from the santa fe going east north of bricktown ... why would we go to union station? ?

That's the point I was making. Also, the track that runs off to the east is Union Pacific.

[Spartan]

I bet Norman is no earlier than 10 years away from riding something. Mayor Cindy Rosenthal is highly supportive among other important Norman people on council and various committees. Its going to take forming a Regional Transit Authority, probably some kind of multi-county vote for a funding source, and potentially federal help depending on the cost.

So fairly complicated. The good news is that there is desire for such a connection on both ends of the line. You have Moore in the middle, of which I am not certain of their level of support.

Hutch, want to add anthing?

Moore has a downtown area adjacent to the tracks that they are making significant investments in. I think they realize that their downtown won't realize their intended catalyst development without expanding their building footprint. I think Moore could be a great TOD target, plus that's a city that prioritizes sheer growth over anything else.

[ou48A]

I bet Norman is no earlier than 10 years away from riding something. Mayor Cindy Rosenthal is highly supportive among other important Norman people on council and various committees. Its going to take forming a Regional Transit Authority, probably some kind of multi-county vote for a funding source, and potentially federal help depending on the cost.

So fairly complicated. The good news is that there is desire for such a connection on both ends of the line. You have Moore in the middle, of which I am not certain of their level of support.

Hutch, want to add anthing?

Thanks


From conversations that I have had with folks in Norman there seems to be broad support in the community from ordinary people for doing this down the road at some point. I have heard that the city of Moore is interested.

Since this seems to have broad support it would seem to make sense to go ahead and create a Regional Rail Transit Authority so that planning can move forward. As we build and reconstruct roads and bridges we could go ahead and do some of the things that will be needed. By starting the process now we could probably be in a better position to obtain federal grants over a period of several years rather than a onetime block grant.

I would like to see downtown OKC connected to Edmond, Tinker/ Midwest City, Moore / Norman and the OKC Airport with the possibility of further expansion around the metro.

[BoulderSooner]

the regional system AA study is getting ready to start ..

[mdeand]

Plus again, can't people walk to Union Station through our beautiful new park to get there anyways? Were talking about a 2 -3 block walk from a station stop that is within eyesight? Why would we circumvent encouraging people from walking by taking them up to the front door as if it were a Walmart?

I appreciate the desire to promote healthy lifestyles (walking), but having the commuter station farther away from downtown office space is not a good idea because it would discourage ridership. The purpose of commuter rail is to 1) be more environmentally conscious and 2) be more economical, as energy costs go up. The walking distance from Union Station to the First National Center is 10 blocks, not two or three. Think how miserable that would be in February when the wind chill is -20? I live in Norman and would definitely patronize a commuter rail system, but not if it meant walking that distance to my downtown OKC from Union Station -- park or no park.

[Urban Pioneer]

I think my debate with Larry is confusing you. Santa-Fe Station is the hub. Not Union Station. Your who I said I was concerned about in the future- note other posts.