Streetcar

[Urban Pioneer]

Glad Newsok put that video up! We covered a great deal of ground in that meeting! Particularly excited about having direction from Council to Staff to let our Committee begin studying the NE Line via the consultants.

[Just the facts]

UP - you must have soiled yourself when ODOT said they were unaware that the streetcar would run on tracks and be electrified. Are these people (ODOT) even living on this planet?

[Snowman]

The reference to he is not the train guy, when reverencing the boulevard going under the tracks, seems like ODOT only has one guy handling all the states rail issues and they do not like to include him on anything that might impact trains.

[Spartan]

Since when do you have to be a train guy to understand that streetcar runs on rails in the pavement? How many of us are "train guys?"

It sickens me to see the city making excuses for how pathetic ODOT is. The bottom line is if the city wants this boulevard to be anything other than a trainwreck (sans the rails of course) then the city needs to take over this project immediately, and may have to forgo some of the state funding - but getting ODOT's funding is not worth the risk of having them design this boulevard.

They're wanting a bridge over the Western/Classen/Reno/Exchange intersections. Not only will that squander infill development potential along the boulevard in that area, but it will ruin all of those other streets for development as well. In effect it will keep the development in that area looking like what is there now, which is just not acceptable, especially if you consider what an awesome development catalyst a huge roundabout or traffic circle could be.

Also I would argue that every single one of the highway engineers at ODOT need to be fired. That agency needs to be disbanded before they do more harm to OKC with other projects. My tolerance for dealing with them is already stretched thin by having the Crosstown relocation forced on us and other bad priorities.

[blangtang]

I think I read the article but I remember it said the street car will be finished in 2021? I thought it was gonna be up and running in like a year or two!

[Urban Pioneer]

We're going into engineering and about 4 years out from riding the first section. Writer was sticking to the ADG schedule for the end of the "2nd phase". The reality is the bulk of it is happening much sooner. Don't panic friend. Lol

[ljbab728]

I have to say that it almost sounds like a few of the Council members had been reading comments here closely before asking questions. They were parroting many of our concerns.

[Urban Pioneer]

Several of the posters here work very closely with a few, specific Councilors. And yes, several of them read this stuff directly. OKCTALK is often a great "sounding board" for many issues. I do wish we had more contributors/bloggers though. A great many educated people are lurkers. They should sign up and express their opinion. The anonymity of the user names shields consequences. It is a great mechanism wildly underutilized.

[kevinpate]

Since when do you have to be a train guy to understand that streetcar runs on rails in the pavement? ...

Maybe they just need to call it something other than a streetcar. ODOT hears street and car smushed together and in their minds all they see are vehicles rolling on four rubber wheels.

[NoOkie]

Is there anything that can be done to express our dissatisfaction with ODOT's current plans? Or do we have to depend on the Council to talk sense into them?

[Larry OKC]

Urban, Betts or anyone else (I posted this over in the linked article but am repeating it here)

I realize that there may be very valid reasons for the route chosen but I would really like to know what those reasons are & what happened as from the previous 100+ pages of the thread, I thought we were headed in a very different direction (no pun intended)...to clarify, this is not an attack on you or your efforts

Why oh why is the Streetcar just barely touching a corner of the Park and NOT going thru the Union Station...this is as obvious as it going to Bricktown and using the Santa Fe station as the Hub.?????

There was also much talk about NOT having double tracked lines or only being separated by a block, to greatly enhance the coverage/number of people served within a certain walking distance????

Riding from one end to the other requires 16 turns?????

Then there is the Boulevard...I noticed several years ago, they kept saying that the Boulevard was going to follow the same path as the old crosstown. The problem then that no one else seemed to notice was that the old crosstown does NOT travel in a straight line. it alters course a couple of times. if you just lower the crosstown to ground level (and they aren't even doing that all the way right now), you are going to have places where the Boulevard is literally within a few feet of existing roads and at odd angles. Why aren't they straightening out the Boulevard????

[Spartan]

Several of the posters here work very closely with a few, specific Councilors. And yes, several of them read this stuff directly. OKCTALK is often a great "sounding board" for many issues. I do wish we had more contributors/bloggers though. A great many educated people are lurkers. They should sign up and express their opinion. The anonymity of the user names shields consequences. It is a great mechanism wildly underutilized.

This is exactly why I feel the people we attach (perfect example: SR) are also on this board defending themselves from public criticism. I know many real people behind the usernames, it even surprises me sometime just how impactful this forum has been. I know Pete is delirious.

[Urban Pioneer]

Why oh why is the Streetcar just barely touching a corner of the Park and NOT going thru the Union Station...this is as obvious as it going to Bricktown and using the Santa Fe station as the Hub.?????

Why would we go down to Union Station? No passenger trains go there and for the foresable future it will continue to be the administrative offices for COTPA. Not exactly a "destination" for most people riding on the streetcar. Plus, we have gone from being a block away on Reno as originally concieved to coming in direct contact with the park itself on the corner. The whole idea is people can walk into the park. The streetcar doesn't need to literally run through the middle of it.


There was also much talk about NOT having double tracked lines or only being separated by a block, to greatly enhance the coverage/number of people served within a certain walking distance????

And we are continuing to do that on the main transit N/S spine. That hasn't changed. The double tracked section on the "south end" of the system are necessray to connect the new Convention Center, Chesapeake Arena, Park, and Santa-Fe Station. The Cox Convention and Chesapeake Arena super-blocks are an obtacle that has to "be gotten around" to service all four key destinations with continuity.


Riding from one end to the other requires 16 turns?????

A rider would experience 16 turns if they rode the streetcar as an amusement ride. Nobody is going to experience 16 turns unless they intentionally ride the entire route. This is entirely reasonable in a downtown circulator as long as the turns are of the appropriate radius. In that way, the experience is not uncomfortable. It is "forced turns, that are diffivult. None of these turns will be "compressed". When we emerge from downtown with other extensions, the system will straighten out and even take on greater speed. But downtown, you have super-blocks and key destinations that have to be served within close proximity.


Then there is the Boulevard...I noticed several years ago, they kept saying that the Boulevard was going to follow the same path as the old crosstown. The problem then that no one else seemed to notice was that the old crosstown does NOT travel in a straight line. it alters course a couple of times. if you just lower the crosstown to ground level (and they aren't even doing that all the way right now), you are going to have places where the Boulevard is literally within a few feet of existing roads and at odd angles. Why aren't they straightening out the Boulevard????

Can't speak on the new Boulevard Design with complete knowledge. Continuing to learn new things about it daily. I would say as though the "curve" you are concerned about is slated to become even more profound as they consider giving the Convention Center additional space.

[Snowman]

There was also much talk about NOT having double tracked lines or only being separated by a block, to greatly enhance the coverage/number of people served within a certain walking distance????

One thing that worries me with 'greatly enhancing' coverage replicating our bus problem, we need to keep it to an area we can cover well.

Separating the tracks hardly seems to enhance walking distance, both tracks still have to be in walking distance unless you have a lot of one way traffic.

[kevinpate]

Guess my eyesight is failing a bit. Where is the most current map of the suggested initial route(s)?

[Tier2City]

See item VIII. W. on last week's Council agenda:
http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/mtgview...doctype=AGENDA

[Watson410]

I'm get so anxious for this project to start!! I CAN'T WAIT UNTIL IT'S DONE!!!! It'll be an awesome showcase for the city if it's done correctly!

[Larry OKC]

I understand that there are many challenges to this (serving tourist needs, a downtown circulator, the 1st step of Mass Trans, connecting Residential, retail and major employers and connecting as many of the MAPS projects (past & present) as possible. Maybe this is the best that could be come up with but on the surface this route seems like a major fail.

Why oh why is the Streetcar just barely touching a corner of the Park and NOT going thru the Union Station...this is as obvious as it going to Bricktown and using the Santa Fe station as the Hub.?????

Why would we go down to Union Station? No passenger trains go there and for the foresable future it will continue to be the administrative offices for COTPA. Not exactly a "destination" for most people riding on the streetcar. Plus, we have gone from being a block away on Reno as originally concieved to coming in direct contact with the park itself on the corner. The whole idea is people can walk into the park. The streetcar doesn't need to literally run through the middle of it.

Besides being the southernmost point on an earlier proposed "route"...

Because it WAS a train station. You would be utilizing it again for its intended purpose. COTPA can move. If it went there it could certainly be a destination and now you are eliminating it from the equation, just an interesting building backdrop not serving a functional purpose. By having the streetcar essentially touch the Park in the most minimal fashion, it will discourage using the Park in a meaningful way. If they are dropped off in the middle, then they would be more likely to explore in various directions. Even better the more options you give them (have a stop at the current spot, the middle and later the other end when that part is built).

The N/S line is only separated by a block, so you are gaining some by the added block but those in the middle are overlapping (they are still at most 1 block away from either track) the same coverage as being double tracked on the same street (people on both sides of the track are within 1 block of it). Someone posted (think it was you but may have been JTF) that the more distance you have the greater the coverage is. That is only being marginally achieved with the northern end where 2 blocks are separating (but they are the short side blocks). Instead of double tracking, why not have bi-directional tracks in that limited area. That gives you more track to extend to other areas.

Betts argued (and I agree) more than once that the streetcar needed to have as few turns as possible so the 16 turns doesn't make since. You can still get around the obstacles mentioned without all the turns (but there may be physical barriers that prevent that, I don't know). betts and I were in agreement about Union Station (at least early in the thread)

Post #617 & #620

Can we leave out Union Station? I'll be interested to see the ultimate route, but I think you've almost got to run the line there, or you've left Core to Shore completely without access.

I disagree. Expanding this line will be a slow process. Union Station will be an integral part of Core to Shore, and the park is part of the first phase of Core to Shore. We've already learned that development follows street car lines. One of the best ways to stimulate development in that area is with the street car line. One of the best ways to ensure that our Central Park doesn't become a Will Rogers Park.....out of the way, difficult to access and thus underutilized....is to make it easily accessible immediately. None of the area the line will serve really qualifies as significantly "denser" or "more populated" right now anyway.

[Larry OKC]

Guess my eyesight is failing a bit. Where is the most current map of the suggested initial route(s)?

See item VIII. W. on last week's Council agenda:
http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/mtgview...doctype=AGENDA

I had trouble making that work in my browser, can try this link too
http://newsok.com/maps-3-streetcar-p...rticle/3680294

[Urban Pioneer]

Larry, to be quite honest regarding the Park and Union Station, I doubt that we have the money to go further down there. Plus, on our primary line we are trying to get as many people as quickly from the future Intermodal Hub into the CBD without going too far out of our way. The assumption is that connecting to Santa-Fe Station will be helping distribute future commuters coming in from Edmond, Norman, Midwest City. We are serving C2S while still not taking people too far out of their way on to their jobs. I realize that is looking out into the future, but because this is a permanent system, we are thinking that way.

Besides, in the future the entire distance of the new MAPS 3 Park will be presumably served by the future extension of the streetcar system to the river or Capitol Hill.

Regarding the turns, it was debated at length and yes there is a good reason for all of them.

Regarding double track versus single track, we are simply not going to agree. If utilities end up being a huge issue, we might end up double tracking other places. Otherwise, analysis and engineering is commencing on what is proposed.

[Pete]

From Urban Pioneer:

[1972ford]

the green lines are my idea on it and the blue are lines that I moved. gives the park more coverage as well as the western side of downtown. This would help stimulate the area to the west of walker that is just run down. Gives us betetr access to the ballpark as well as service to reno in bricktown as well as sheridan. Overall is will add some track but should not be too much I don't think. Oh and there would also be rail from broadway to gaylord on sheridan.

[Spartan]

I can't see your image, but it sounds like you're way beyond the project scope of 6-7 miles of rail.

[OKCisOK4me]

From Urban Pioneer:
[/center]

In case anyone is wondering, this shot was taken at NW 33rd St. & Robinson

[Larry OKC]

Selling ad space even back then I see