Did you miss immigrants in OKC today?

[quailcreekgal]

So far I've noticed no difference in my daily life around OKC without immigrants. I went to the dentist and had my teeth cleaned; I ate lunch at the SnowPea on Western and went to the bank. As I drove down Western the parking lots of every cafe and restaurant were jam packed I had to wait in line at the drive-through bank and there was no waiting in the dentist's office . So unless Walmart is closed after work today, my life will be just fine without the people who took the day off

[Midtowner]

No problems here! I even ate at Marcos #3 for lunch. Although the food seems to have slipped a LOT recently in the quality department (I won't be going back for a looong time), they were not short on help.

[Kerry]

I went by the free health clinic (by free I mean free to the person receiving service) and there was a line. I guess they didn't boycott everything.

[sweetdaisy]

LOL, Kerry! I was wondering if the boycott would include access to free health services...guess not.

Didn't notice a thing today...

[writerranger]

I went by the free health clinic (by free I mean free to the person receiving service) and there was a line. I guess they didn't boycott everything.

Not to mention, their children were in our schools (free), the emergency rooms still treated illegals (free), they picked up assistance for their "citizen babies"(free).....a day without an illegal immigrant should be reversed sometime and they would realize the graciousness of the American people. Fortunately, I think many Americans are waking up to the con job pulled on our society from the invading latinos. Take away all this country (wrongly) offers illegals and their families and they would learn that what they are getting NOW - ain't so bad. And enjoy it while it lasts, because this little tantrum in the streets has probably backfired in an HISTORIC way and has awakened a sleeping culture.

THE AMERICAN PATROL





Will you help preserve American culture?
The Minutemen.....Americans Doing The Jobs Congress Won't Do

[John]

Their consumer ban is about as effective as the chain e-mails about not buying gas on 'so and so' day. I'm guessing they went shopping yesterday or will do so tomorrow.

Good job!

[NewPlains]

Not to be a killjoy, but doesn't this belong in the political section?

And just to add some gasoline to the fire here, first of all, local leaders scheduled the protest here for 5:30 specificly so that people wouldn't skip school or work. They are mindful of the sort of objections that have been raised in this and other forums and are being fairly politically saavy about trying not to alienate the community as a whole.

Secondly, I personally think that the sort of attitudes voiced here and in other forums about "illegals" is shortsighted. The sort of anti immigrant fever that's being churned up is nothing short of demagaugery of the worst kind. No one is going expel millions of people from this country and there isn't a lock that a human can't pick, a river they can't cross, a fence they can't tunnel under or climb over. If people are so concerned about security issues, why not simply increase the number of legal immigrants to meet the obvious demand? You will never hear that brought up, because this argument isn't about security or illegal vs legal immigration, it's about allowing immigration at all and specificly non white immigration. As far as I'm concerned, the more people from the more places we have in america the better. Everything about american culture is a synthesis of other cultures, so I don't see how this is any different than arguing that the irish/poles/germans/czechs/chinese/whatever were "destroying american culture" when they came. Clearly america means something different to me than it means to a lot of other people, and that's fine. I certainly understand that this is a touchy subject for a lot of people, but if I wake up someday and look out the window and see a multicultural bilingual america, I'll say "it's about damn time!". In fact, I think I see one now.

[NewPlains]

Also, anyone born in America is an American citizen, no quotes needed. Check the constitution.

[writerranger]

Everything about american culture is a synthesis of other cultures, so I don't see how this is any different than arguing that the irish/poles/germans/czechs/chinese/whatever were "destroying american culture" when they came........ if I wake up someday and look out the window and see a multicultural bilingual america, I'll say "it's about damn time!". In fact, I think I see one now.

The others that have come to America over the last 250 years came to be a part of a melting pot (and came legally). Assimilation was key. This new wave of illegal immigrants want to be Latinos-In-America versus becoming Americans.

You WANT a bilingual America? Nothing is more disastrous for a country and its cultural fabric than to rip away a common language. France has done a superb job in "policing" its language. If one tried to immigrate to France and doesn't know French - they can forget it. There are laws on signage in other languages, etc. in France. A Balkanized America (which is where we are headed) spells the end of the America we all knew. And with so many Berkeley leftists preaching the ills of America, the joys of a multicultural/bilingual soup and how awful we treat ILLEGAL aliens -- maybe this is what you want!

By the way.....you wrote:

Also, anyone born in America is an American citizen, no quotes needed. Check the constitution.

And the 14th Ammendment needs to be repealed.

But you also wrote:

I personally think that the sort of attitudes voiced here and in other forums about "illegals" is shortsighted.

Anyone crossing the border illegally is an ILLEGAL alien. No quotes needed.

[Karried]

I don't think anyone is saying that we don't want a multi cultured nation.

I think most want the people coming into the country to do so legally.

The fact is that the illegal immigrants do put a strain on the country. I know personally that public education has suffered. I lived in an agricultural area and we had farm workers/ migrant workers bring thier children here for six months out of the year.. the test scores in the schools they attended were the lowest in the state. The parental involvement was nil.

And of course, the teachers spend hour after hour trying to get the children to learn English.

Imagine what happened to the children who did speak English? We were forced to have our children attend there so the schools would be integrated with English speakers - 72% Hispanic. He was supposed to take a bus for over 40 minutes to go across town to a horrible area. My son had been in Private school for a few years.. we decided to try public school for financial reasons ( we were already paying $4000 property taxes. ( Public school lasted 2 weeks) In fourth grade he was bringing home work he had done in Kindergarten!

At any rate, I'm sure that this scenario takes place everywhere where there are illegal immigrants or even with people who don't feel the need to teach their children English or learn the language.

I also feel the medical costs are enormous and the welfare/social services are costing the tax payers money. I've seen first hand the abuse of food stamps and welfare checks. I worked in the Silicon Valley for years at a grocery store. Many times I witnessed people selling stamps or Wic coupons for cash to buy cigarettes and alcohol. The majority of shoppers were Hispanic non English speaking so I think many of them were not here legally - I don't know for sure.

Actually, the culture I like the most is the Hispanic culture. I love the way they embrace the family and help each other out. I love the outlook and attitudes. Most I have met are extremely hard working and very appreciative of work.

I just think the better way is to do it legally and have them pay taxes like everyone else.

[Pete]

I work in Los Angeles and run a nonprofit agency for at-risk youth and most of our clients are Latino, legal and otherwise.


The fact that Latinos don't speak English is a complete myth. FIRST GENERATION Latinos have a difficult time picking up the language, just like every immigrant group from non-English speaking countries. Learning a new language as an adult is extremely difficult... I've tried it myself and did not have the will to stick with it.

Second generation immigrants speak English but may also learn their native language in the home. SPANISH IS NOT SPOKEN IN LAUSD SCHOOLS! This is the largest school district in the country with a majority of Latino students, and I work in these schools almost every day. They are taught in English, period.


Frankly, I don't see what people are so worried about. The country is running at virtual full employment, I guarantee everyone on this board lives in a bigger, nicer house than their parents had and usually with far few people in it. People drive nice cars, have computers at home, several TV's, DVD players, eat out several times a week, take lavish vacations, have tons of clothes, etc., etc. This is all the norm in middle class American these days.

In short, the standard of living is much better than it was just 20 years ago when Mexicans started coming here en masse.

You can complain that illegals are "taking our resources" but they obviously are contributing to the economy in a big way too, otherwise we wouldn't have such an incredibly high standard of living in this country. And by the way, violent crime is at a 20-year low and is falling all the time.

Simply put, these immigrant workers are needed, loads of businesses are happy to employ them, Americans are more than happy to let them have the jobs that were largely unfilled for and this country is thriving.

As a country, we've always supplemented the lower class with government assistance... Whether we do that through our own higher medical insurance or provide the healthcare directly, the effect is largely the same. People that don't understand this need to take a course in macroeconomics.


Nothing is going to change if the people that are here -- and obviously needed -- now are legalized or not. I'd like to see them put through the process of becoming legal to tone down the rhetoric around this issue, but it won't change much of anything in the big picture and based on my ample, direct experience, that's fine with me.

[quailcreekgal]

Not to be a killjoy but you never answered the question and that's all it was. You assume bias and ignorance in other people which says alot more about you than it does anyone else.

[okcitian]

About the illegal immigrants who can't fluently speak English well, I think is since they are not well-educated with Spanish in Mexico (and other countries). It's hard to learn English that way without speaking your native language "correctly".

My mom happened to become a fluent English speaker in about a year or so while living in Oklahoma City in the late 70s. But the difference with her and the other Mexican immigrants was that she was financially well off in Mexico with a white-collar job and had attended a University. This was many years before Mexico hit a downturn in the late 1980s.

[BDP]

Well, most people in the US don't speak English correctly, either, especially in Oklahoma ("where you office at?"!).

I did not miss immigrants on Monday, but, then again, I didn't miss you the last time you took a day off either.

[MadMonk]

The whole protest is pathetic. How about we all stop paying our taxes and protest in the streets against the IRS and demand that we be given amnesty. That would be okay too right? After all, what's the big deal about breaking the law huh? What I gathered from the whole protest is this message - "We demand our right to break the law without consequence!"

[okcitian]

I've known illegals who happen to pay thier federal taxes and are not given anything in return since they are illegal so they keep our nation's citizens with lower income taxes. And when I asked the person about it if they paid taxes, they showed me documents to prove.

[Midtowner]

And the 14th Ammendment needs to be repealed.

He was referring to Article 14, section 1. He didn't quote it because it's pretty easy to come up with an analysis that doesn't necesarily work in his favor -- well, either that, or he's never read the 14th amendment, he probably just heard from some guy that the 14th Amendment is a good one to cite whenever you don't know what the hell you're talking about -- that's actually (generally speaking) not a bad rule to follow!

U.S. Const. Article XVI, Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. . . . emphasis added

The underlined language is the issue. There has actually been a significant amount of debate as to whether children born to parents who are here illegally are "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States.

There are quite a few constitutional scholars who believe that the intention of the writers of the 14th Amendment was not to provide illegals with "anchor babies." Illegal immigrants such as the Mexicans were not really considered a threat. In fact, much of the Civil War was fought with immigrant soldiers (mostly fighting for the Union).

Most of the legal arguments tend to favor the current view that illegals are in fact subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S. government, but there has been serious talk in Congress about changing that -- and changing that would not require a Constitutional Amendment in all likelihood.

I won't discuss the rest of the 14th. I will state, however, that I really don't like what it's turned into in many cases.

[BDP]

How about we all stop paying our taxes and protest in the streets against the IRS and demand that we be given amnesty.

That's not a bad idea.

“We need a revolution every generation” -Thomas Jefferson

Why is this thread here anyway? Don't we have boards for poltical claptrap?

[Midtowner]

Well, most people in the US don't speak English correctly, either, especially in Oklahoma ("where you office at?"!).

I did not miss immigrants on Monday, but, then again, I didn't miss you the last time you took a day off either.

Who does speak proper English? The Queen? Me? I'm not really sure, and I don't think anyone is.

The english language does not have an equivelant of the Academie Française -- a french body of language experts, writers, and other academics who endeavor to protect their language from foriegn influences creating new words as needed.

What is and isn't proper often depends on the listener.

Of course, that's all irrelevant. I don't think anyone (but you) was objecting to improper English. Rather, they were objecting to no english at all. There is a pretty substantial difference there.

[MadMonk]

That's not a bad idea.
...

You go first then.

Why even have laws if you are going to let a group of people completely ignore them without consequence? You speed, you get a ticket. You steal, you get arrested. You sneak in to our country without permission, you get arrested and deported - ideally with a boot-print on your posterior.

[writerranger]

I've known illegals who happen to pay thier federal taxes and are not given anything in return since they are illegal so they keep our nation's citizens with lower income taxes. And when I asked the person about it if they paid taxes, they showed me documents to prove.

hmmmmm. I wonder whose stolen social security number that illegal alien is using? If that person is truly ILLEGAL and paying federal taxes, it's impossible for them to be paying under their own number.

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[Midtowner]

Write -- the feds excuse this, and in fact, they have set up a system to facilitate it!

If an illegal files a tax return under your SSN, the IRS's file for that individual is under XXX-XX-XXXX-1

The problem here though is this -- what happens when the hombre fails to pay his debts? Do the credit reporting agencies have the same system as the IRS? Sometimes, but not always.

So okcitian, does it make you feel all warm and fuzzy for that illegal now that you know that this illegal may very well be responsible for some innocent person being denied a job, a mortgage, or emergency funds due to someone's theft of their SSN?

[Pete]

Why even have laws if you are going to let a group of people completely ignore them without consequence?

You mean like the countless businesses that employ illegals? Or how about all the families that have illegals cut their grass, mind their children and do the real work at most the restaurants and retail establishments in this country.

The speeding analogy is a good one... The immigration laws are enforced about as often as someone is caught speeding and like that 'crime' everyone involved pretty much looks the other way because it's just not that big of a deal.


If people really wanted to do something about this situation, they would stop employing illegals and stop patronizing stores and restaurants that do the same. Of course, that will never happen because despite all the rhetoric, Mr. and Mrs. American still want their cheap produce, to eat out several times a week and are always going to shop at the stores with the lowest prices, regardless of how they are acheived.

[wolf2006]

hmmmmm. I wonder whose stolen social security number that illegal alien is using? If that person is truly ILLEGAL and paying federal taxes, it's impossible for them to be paying under their own number.

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Actually, the IRS created a program that gives a "Individual Tax Identification Number" to any person who wants to pay taxes, but does not qualify for a Social Security Number. The program was originally intended for rich foreigners with investments in America, but it has been adapted to accommodate illegal immigrants. Several illegal immigrants file taxes legally under anonymity, so not all immigrants steal social security numbers to pay taxes.


http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=96287,00.html#who

Of course, stealing social security numbers is a problem, but should we blame the immigrants or the people in America who steal those numbers?

[writerranger]

Actually, the IRS created a program that gives a "Individual Tax Identification Number" to any person who wants to pay taxes, but does not qualify for a Social Security Number. The program was originally intended for rich foreigners with investments in America, but it has been adapted to accommodate illegal immigrants. Several illegal immigrants file taxes legally under anonymity, so not all immigrants steal social security numbers to pay taxes.


http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=96287,00.html#who

Of course, stealing social security numbers is a problem, but should we blame the immigrants or the people in America who steal those numbers?

Very interesting. I found a good article concerning this...
http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/back1202.html

Her's the beginning of that article:

Through its issuance of Individual Tax Identification Numbers (ITINs), the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) appears to be blind or indifferent to the reality that it has:


*created an official U.S. tax number that illegal aliens are using as identification, thereby making it easier for them to meld unnoticed into our society;


*endangered homeland security by issuing ITINs to illegal aliens, without adequately ensuring that they are denied to terrorists, criminals on the FBI database, and those under deportation notices;


*exceeded its traditional role as a tax receiver and processor by marketing the ITIN to illegal immigrant communities;


*failed to provide adequate safeguards to prevent illegal aliens from receiving tax benefits to which they are not entitled;


*subverted U.S. immigration laws by withholding information from the INS and SSA about fraudulent activity of illegal aliens;


*provided an ID vehicle that advocates hope will be used to "regularize" illegal aliens; and


*withheld from public review data that is relevant to determining the economic contribution of illegal aliens to U.S. society.


The events of September 11, 2001, were a wake-up call to the American people that something must be done to protect our core identity documents. They were shocked to learn that 18 of the 19 terrorists possessed either state-issued or counterfeit driver’s licenses or ID cards and all 19 had obtained Social Security numbers (SSNs) — some real, some fake. The hijackers simply tapped into an enormous market for fraudulent documents that exists because nine million people have successfully breached our borders and now reside here illegally. Their presence has spawned widespread document and identity fraud that threatens our ability to distinguish illegal aliens from U.S. citizens and legal foreign residents.

-snip-

The withholding of taxes is involuntary. Federal, state, and local income taxes and Social Security taxes are withheld from paychecks by employers. Workers have no say in the matter. But taxes withheld are not necessarily taxes paid. The United States has a progressive income tax that applies very low tax rates to low-income households. In fact, millions of households pay no federal tax at all. It is believed that the vast majority of illegal residents who file a tax return using an ITIN get full or partial tax refunds because of the low level of their earnings. Indeed, some erroneously receive the Earned Income Credit, intended to supplement the income of the working poor. Thus, ironically, by issuing ITINs the IRS may actually be reducing the tax revenue received from illegal aliens.


more of the article:
http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/back1202.html

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