General Urban Development

[Rover]

I have an idea. Let's just put a ban on all new housing projects and keep the riff raff making under $200,000/year out of downtown. And put up an electronic gate at the highway exits into downtown that lock up after 8 and require a high-tech electronic access card to get in. That will keep the riff raff out.

And getting the area expunged of filthy middle income inhabitants and traffic will surely cut down on litter. Ghost towns are normally renown for being immaculate.

Why do you so easily excuse boorish behavior. Bad behavior is not a class issue. It doesn't take money to act like responsible adult citizens. Courtesy is free.

[Soho]

What an uncalled for cheap shot! Don't let facts stand in the way of your rant - what Betts says is true and has been magnified by the workers at Level Urban. I come home every night to piles of constrction materials, lunch leftovers etc..

I have an idea. Let's just put a ban on all new housing projects and keep the riff raff making under $200,000/year out of downtown. And put up an electronic gate at the highway exits into downtown that lock up after 8 and require a high-tech electronic access card to get in. That will keep the riff raff out.

And getting the area expunged of filthy middle income inhabitants and traffic will surely cut down on litter. Ghost towns are normally renown for being immaculate.

[Spartan]

AAARGGH!!!

I just wrote a long, well thought-out, reasoned response..and my computer froze up. And then OKC Talk logged me out on my studio computer, so this is the 3rd time I've tried making this post.

Basically...

You're right it's the construction workers. I admit I personally know some airhead former sorority girls in the Deep Deuce Apartments who definitely view proper garbage disposal as beneath their glamorous selves, but I don't doubt for a second that the real culprit is the construction workers, not other nearby residents. I see this with construction in nice nice neighborhoods everywhere. The contractors and construction workers who drive these big ghastly pickup trucks and feel entitled to park them with carte blanche, throw their cig butts and McD's wrappers everywhere, smoke up and down the sidewalk, and I could go on...

My apartment in Calgary is next to this apartment highrise project that just broke ground and I have been going through many of these same headaches, and I remember this is exactly how it always was with construction workers on the OU campus also. Not to stereotype, and I know many of them are wonderful, great people who aren't this way, but it seems like a lot of them (when they're working on projects where they are not exactly the uh intended target demographic) have absolute and utter disdain for their surroundings and see matters of simply being sensitive to people LIVING nearby as "bending over backwards" for people they have little in common, to put it nicely (this was a response I once got after confronting a group of 4 that were all smoking outside my neighborhood deli).

That's just the way of the world. And it's only getting worse, as we're becoming more culturally and socially divisive, and especially as contractors are in the drivers seat when it comes to project bidding. I'm sure Mr. McKown is none too pleased about this situation himself, and even more so Mr. Bradshaw whom already has homeowners living in the neighborhood and just a few more units remaining for-sale.

[Spartan]

Why do you so easily excuse boorish behavior. Bad behavior is not a class issue. It doesn't take money to act like responsible adult citizens. Courtesy is free.

I don't excuse boorish behavior. Most on here even say that I go too far in villifying it. The problem is I'm exasperated and at my wit's end, as you guys know, on the activism side of things we've had some pretty demoralizing defeats in the last 5 years. At the very least, my friends always know that when they go to a Thunder game or elsewhere downtown with me that they won't be getting away with littering or anything other than being model citizens and stewards of the environment. I think you guys know that of me.

It's a shame that our community absolutely does not value cleanliness, sustainability, environmental friendliness, community appearance, etc. At this point, what can we do? (This is me throwing my arms up about to give up.) I admire the tenacity on this effort of betts and others, and I already sent her an email saying that I was wrong to jump onto her, but I just sensed an attack on the "affordable" housing developments (key: $700-1200/mo), which I still maintain is the key to growing the downtown economy. That was just an issue based on context of other debates that have been popping up in lots of threads lately. To be honest, it IS an absolute godsend to have homeowners that look after this neighborhood, and it's just unfortunate that there aren't yet enough community residents or an organized effort to combat this very negative, insidious construction impact.

[Just the facts]

I attended a local sustainability conference in Fernandina Beach last night and one of the big issues was litter. I guess it is a problem everywhere. There were a couple of possible solutions. 1) More trash cans, 2) install plastic bag dispenser where people can recycle plastic bags at one end and obtain a handy trash bag at the other end.

Like this, but on a pole.

[betts]

Construction workers are part of the problem, but actually most of them put their trash in the bins around our house. I know, because the bins are always full of fast food bags. More trash cans is the best solution. Urban Neighbors would seem like a likely place to start raising consciousness, but I suspect the people who bother to join Urban Neighbors aren't the ones littering. I'm not sure how one would go about getting more trash cans in the Deep Deuce area, because I believe the owners of the development are not local. Perhaps I will stop in the rental office and chat with them, but I really don't expect to get very far. Maywood has lots of trash receptables - your TIF dollars at work!

[metro]

Construction workers are part of the problem, but actually most of them put their trash in the bins around our house. I know, because the bins are always full of fast food bags. More trash cans is the best solution. Urban Neighbors would seem like a likely place to start raising consciousness, but I suspect the people who bother to join Urban Neighbors aren't the ones littering. I'm not sure how one would go about getting more trash cans in the Deep Deuce area, because I believe the owners of the development are not local. Perhaps I will stop in the rental office and chat with them, but I really don't expect to get very far. Maywood has lots of trash receptables - your TIF dollars at work!

Yeah, but Urban Neighbors seems to be much more interested in socials and putting things on their resume rather than doing regular community works projects, even though the money is there. That's why I left the organization a year or so ago. I'd rather see a new DT group focused on actually doing civic projects. The only reason the bike racks got done is because it was a pet project of a former board member who dedicated countless hours to it.

[ljbab728]

Isn't there the possibility of some downtown group or organization (Kiwanis, Lions, church group) taking on Deep Deuce as a project for trash pick up? I'm thinking about something similar to the signs you see along some roads or highways touting an organization doing a similar project in that area.

[Spartan]

I'll be honest, I just haven't noticed the level of litter in DD that I guess must exist. But I'm also one who's very easily mesmerized by specific things like architecture and viewsheds, skyline vantage points, etc. (It also probably makes me an annoying driver to be behind in downtown)

[bluedogok]

It's an issue in every setting, not just restricted to urban areas although the more density, the more trash. We have some sort of trash every morning on the "porch" of our office building in LoDo, it was real bad during the St. Patrick's Day parties but the bars to either side of us tried to keep up with it as best they could. The parking lot always has trash in it every morning, it amazes me that people just can't make the effort to throw something away, even when an available (semi-empty) trash can is nearby, sometimes mere feet away from the litter.

[BoulderSooner]

Yeah, but Urban Neighbors seems to be much more interested in socials and putting things on their resume rather than doing regular community works projects, even though the money is there. That's why I left the organization a year or so ago. I'd rather see a new DT group focused on actually doing civic projects. The only reason the bike racks got done is because it was a pet project of a former board member who dedicated countless hours to it.

or because you moved out of downtown ...

[Pete]

Yeah, but Urban Neighbors seems to be much more interested in socials and putting things on their resume rather than doing regular community works projects, even though the money is there. That's why I left the organization a year or so ago. I'd rather see a new DT group focused on actually doing civic projects. The only reason the bike racks got done is because it was a pet project of a former board member who dedicated countless hours to it.

The Better Block initiative is the definition of pro-active:

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=28844

[catch22]

My suburban neighborhood is free of trash. It's because no one is on the street walking. The trash is in their garage or their car.

It's one of the side effects of having people walking, they drop stuff, accidental or not. Maybe it was windy and that Hershey's bar wrapper blew out of their hands. Maybe they were lazy, we'll never know. I'll take some trash on the ground if it meant I could walk more than I drive.

[Just the facts]

My suburban neighborhood is free of trash. It's because no one is on the street walking. The trash is in their garage or their car.

It's one of the side effects of having people walking, they drop stuff, accidental or not. Maybe it was windy and that Hershey's bar wrapper blew out of their hands. Maybe they were lazy, we'll never know. I'll take some trash on the ground if it meant I could walk more than I drive.

While my subdivision is relatively free from trash, the road right outside my subdivision is covered in trash. The suburban freeway near my subdivision is a litter mecca.

Here is the difference though - downtown people are walking so you can see every individual item of trash. In a car you are doing 30mph to 75mph and are looking 100' down the road. Get out and walk around your neighborhood and I'll bet there is more trash than you expect. Go to the entrance of your subdivision and see how much trash is there (usually cigarette butts by the thousands).

[betts]

Most of the trash around here is clearly dropped between car and house. Most people in the neighborhood park on the street, and from the location you can see that the trash is likely dropped as they get out of their car. Or, they're getting into their car and decide to do a little housekeeping. I'm trying to decide if it's because they never had to pick up after themselves as kids - things dropped in the house magically disappeared - or what. And of course, by making my walks trash pickup events, I'm probably making the same thing happen - trash magically disappears when you drop it.

[catch22]

Pile it up on their front porch?

[Just the facts]

What is the average wind speed in Deep Deuce? While riding my bike today I notice several piece of trash just 'blowing' down the road. They keep going until they hit something or the wind stops carrying it.

[Just the facts]

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that I suspect a lot of the litter in Deep Deuce never originated in DD. I suspect a lot of it is coming over the interstate nearby.

It seems some low obsticles could be used to catch blowing trash. These obsticles could be be a low chain-link fence or hedge rows. They don't need to be continuous so as to prevent pedestrian movement but a staggered set of them could trap a lot of trash and make clean-up a lot easier.

[Spartan]

My point is that we could build the most beautiful building in the world, and someone would still complain about it.
And that someone is usually Spartan!

"Most beautiful building in the world" is subjective. I have a feeling you probably think that is anything along Memorial Road, anyway.

[Dubya61]

Spartan, your tag line is all wrong. You are ALWAYS enthusiastic ... about sniping and criticising!

[Just the facts]

"Most beautiful building in the world" is subjective. I have a feeling you probably think that is anything along Memorial Road, anyway.

My father-in-law one time made the statement "They built a beautiful new Target" when describing a new suburban shopping center in his hometown. I guess having a sign where all the letters were lit up qualified as 'beautiful'.

[Dubya61]

I'm sure you immediately derided him into submission stating all the facts about how suburban living is the DEVIL and will kill us all.

[Just the facts]

I'm sure you immediately derided him into submission stating all the facts about how suburban living is the DEVIL and will kill us all.

No - I just chalked it up to him not knowing anything about what makes good urban design.

[Dubya61]

No - I just chalked it up to him not knowing anything about what makes good urban design.

Thank the Lord we have you elite sophists to save us poor slobs from ourselves.

[Just the facts]

Thank the Lord we have you elite sophists to save us poor slobs from ourselves.

Me too. I wish we had come along sooner before we had to create improvement districts for I-240 and Meridian and spend billion fixing downtown which was working just fine before urban sprawl happened. Surely you aren't trying to argue that suburban design and sprawl is the best model for growth. Don't you find it sad and stupid that we have to spend so much money rebuilding stuff that was already built once?

As for elitist - I'll leave that to the people who support segregated zoning.