Penn Square Mall

[Spartan]

I don't know how you can say it's on the decline when it's 100% leased and has a waiting list of over 65 major national retailers and 50 local upscale retailers, with Nordstrom and Saks both interested in occupying anchor space if a new northwest wing is indeed built. The problem is that these retailers want a certain sized space, so they sometimes have to wait for other leases to open up so they can get the space they want. That's been the case with Forever 21. Yeah, there are about 3 or 4 short term leases, but that's the case in any mall across the country. They keep the space filled with short term leases until they find a long term tenant. And some of the spaces, like the old Rockport, for example, and the space occupied by "Honey's, Handbags, and More," are hard to lease due to their small size. Forever 21 has been on the waiting list forever (no pun intended), because they wanted a flagship store in that mall and had to wait for some leases to expire on existing tenants. Malls will never have 100% long term leases. Never have, never will, just because of the different sizes of spaces that open up and what a specific retailer's actual needs are.

I think it goes way beyond "Honey's, Handbags and More." That particular store isn't even listed. Here are some that are:

A Pea In The Pod
Akoo Pavilion
Apricot Lane
AT&T
Backstop, The
Bare Escentuals
Body Central
Body Shop, The
Cache
Campus Ragz
Claire's Accessories
CNS Jewelry & Watch Repair
Designs Place
Dial N Style/Cell King
Elegant Nails
Francesca's Collections
Game Stop
Hallmark
Hot Topic
Icing by Claire's
Jason White's Store Divided
JCPenney
Journeys
Journeys Kidz
Justice

I'll stop at the J's. These tenants are all the anti-thesis to upscale. However, I will say that I understand a lot of these are grandfathered tenants that the mall is waiting for their lease to expire--and if they have a new wing planned that really does have interest from those kinds of retailers, then good for Penn Square and OKC.

But I think right now, to call Penn Square "upscale" by any stretch of the imagination is absurd.

[poe]

It's not a dump.

[ljbab728]

But I think right now, to call Penn Square "upscale" by any stretch of the imagination is absurd.

Just as calling Penn Square a dump is absurd.

[BBatesokc]

Just as calling Penn Square a dump is absurd.

I agree. The only way one could draw that conclusion is because they are either blinded by bias, are extremely arrogant, or think any mall that is not end-to-end over the top expensive retailers is a 'dump.'

Honestly, I don't buy $200 dress shirts or the latest overpriced fashion fad. If that's what Penn Square Mall became then they'd lose me as a shopper. As it is now I don't go often (not a big mall fan) but I do go because of the variety. Their is higher end if my needs/wants require it and there is lower end when that suits the shopping situation.

Its conveniently located, large, parking is abundant, its clean, safe, up-to-date and has a good mix of tenants. Exactly where does that qualify it as a dump?

[Spartan]

This thread has mostly been an exercise of failure in context. I used overly strong language, granted, but my "Penn Square is a dump" retort was mostly in response to praise for Penn Square. This is what we Okies do, we like to delude ourselves into thinking Penn Square is the Galleria de la Oklahoma and the grandest, fanciest mall that exists. It's probably an average mall by most standards. It is so successful economically because developers and mall owners (such as Simon) have figured out that they can invest very little into a property in OKC and still have a controlling market share and enjoy next to zero real competition.

I like to think that OKC is home of slightly more discerning shoppers than the Grand Forks, ND Olive Garden columnist mindset ("This is the nicest restaurant in our city.") Yes, parking is abundant, shootings and gang violence are infrequent compared to Quail Springs, and the tenant mix is barely acceptable. But for being "OKC's premier retail destination" (nobody can really argue otherwise), within THAT strict context, yes it's a dump. And it's days are probably more limited than any of us would imagine, or than I would care to guess. It's an indoor mall, and it's ownership is pretty content with things the way they are--it won't take much to create the next-greatest-ever "OKC's premier retail destination," and I would say CHK is already well on their way.

[soonerliberal]

This thread has mostly been an exercise of failure in context. I used overly strong language, granted, but my "Penn Square is a dump" retort was mostly in response to praise for Penn Square. This is what we Okies do, we like to delude ourselves into thinking Penn Square is the Galleria de la Oklahoma and the grandest, fanciest mall that exists. It's probably an average mall by most standards. It is so successful economically because developers and mall owners (such as Simon) have figured out that they can invest very little into a property in OKC and still have a controlling market share and enjoy next to zero real competition.

Precisely.

Many Oklahomans need to get out of the city more often to see what other places have to offer before claiming a very average mall is a premier shopping destination. It may be the premier place to shop when you compare it to Crossroads Mall, but if you compare it to the top three shopping malls in Dallas, Denver, or any other major city, it is very average to low-average.

[Soonerman]

Park Meadows in Denver is the nicest mall I've been to.

[Architect2010]

Spartan. You were wrong for presuming that all of us liken Penn Square to a Galleria, somehow falsely justifying a STUPID and biased generalization that it's somehow a dump. I think we all agree that Penn Square Mall isn't a exactly the most renowned of places, but it's nice, modern, and more successful than any other in Oklahoma. Funny when everyone disagree's with your little rant, you decide to somehow blame it on an assumption of yours that you must have pulled right out of thin air. I think the distinction between a Galleria and Penn is clear to all but only the most polarized of opinions...

[BBatesokc]

Spartan. You were wrong for presuming that all of us liken Penn Square to a Galleria, somehow falsely justifying a STUPID and biased generalization that it's somehow a dump. I think we all agree that Penn Square Mall isn't a exactly the most renowned of places, but it's nice, modern, and more successful than any other in Oklahoma. Funny when everyone disagree's with your little rant, you decide to somehow blame it on an assumption of yours that you must have pulled right out of thin air. I think the distinction between a Galleria and Penn is clear to all but only the most polarized of opinions...

+1

[Spartan]

Spartan. You were wrong for presuming that all of us liken Penn Square to a Galleria, somehow falsely justifying a STUPID and biased generalization that it's somehow a dump. I think we all agree that Penn Square Mall isn't a exactly the most renowned of places, but it's nice, modern, and more successful than any other in Oklahoma. Funny when everyone disagree's with your little rant, you decide to somehow blame it on an assumption of yours that you must have pulled right out of thin air. I think the distinction between a Galleria and Penn is clear to all but only the most polarized of opinions...

Ironically, this is a pretty polarized opinion, replete with stupid in capital letters, your little rant, you were wrong, falsely justifying, biased, everyone disagrees, you pulled this out of thin air... Why do things always have to be personal with you? My god.

Topically, I'll just add that I think some individuals in this thread seriously underestimate the mass idolation of Penn Square. I think it's even reared its head in this thread, although perhaps the individuals expressing (who knows?) anger toward my post are probably split on whether the mall itself is a nice mall. Notice the automatic assumption that the mall is doing well, backed up by the fact that well, it has an Apple store--obviously it is a nice mall.

This is going to sound elitist, which I'm okay with only because I feel like I have a pre-established reputation for fighting elitists and sophists, but any discussion revolving around Penn Square begins and ends in my mind with the fact that half of those tenants do not belong in a mall that purports to be upscale. And even though most rational people around town do not identify Penn Square as an upscale shopping destination, albeit our city's premier shopping destination, I'd love to see someone argue that isn't at all how the mall markets itself.

How many pages of threads do we have on here full of baseless attacks against a local business for a cheesy marketing campaign? This forum membership takes PR-conscious to the extreme sometimes. Here you have a collection of shameless national retailers, shameless out of town property owners, and a dead concept to boot--all getting away with murder in terms of PR and in damage to OKC's retail scene. The sooner all of these malls go away, the better. Crossroads' demise, for example, is an amazing opportunity to grow organic, neighborhood retail IF the city and developers will stop sitting around and take advantage of it.

I'll throw in a bonus:
Let me outline what is probably going to happen in the future, if Penn Square Mall expansion really is on the table, and especially if the aforementioned tenants really are interested (read: this is if Penn Square has their druthers in these matters). Subsidies. The city is going to be hit up for a TIF deal at least as good as the outlet mall's, if not more lucrative. Then on top of that, we will be hit up for subsidies by any anchor tenant that would consider going in there because they will quickly realize that the mall's "destination" is pretty far out of line with their target location. We will be hit up for the kinds of subsidies that wouldn't be a concern in trendier, higher-end developments like the CHK area.

So then we will have also eviscerated the small window of opportunity that we had with downtown retail. When the ULI came to town and informed us just how much of a subsidy it would cost for an upscale retail anchor like Saks, people balked (ironically, we put up $17 mil for Bass Pro, nobody balked at that). Penn Square will hold its status as the city's long-established premier retail destination over our head, and in the end of this fight that they may cook up to remain competitive with CHK (and this is a big IF), we will have spent at least as much on subsidizing a Saks and we will have no downtown retail to speak of, but instead, we will be the only city in the world that is putting all of its eggs in an extremely outmoded and antiquated basket--an auto-dependent indoor suburban-style shopping mall.

No personal attacks. I also like to think that while I have pretty clear preferences and you guys can normally guess where I'll come down on issues, that I'm not biased, prejudiced, anything else you may come up with, and that I didn't pull any of this out of thin air. Just a guy expressing his concerns.

[Spartan]

By "on a roll," I think they mean Penn Square is doing really well. I've heard, and I believe Patrick has said, that Penn Square has a mega-long waiting list. It really is one of the nicest old-style malls around.

Also, this is not a personal attack either. Mike makes good posts almost always, and has even been quite informative in this thread. But I have quoted this as an example of some of the Penn Square praise that dominates the conversation any time our city's premier retail destination is brought up.

I think the accusation that I pulled something out of thin air... was pulled out of thin air, if anything.

[metro]

I think it goes way beyond "Honey's, Handbags and More." That particular store isn't even listed. Here are some that are:

A Pea In The Pod
Akoo Pavilion
Apricot Lane
AT&T
Backstop, The
Bare Escentuals
Body Central
Body Shop, The
Cache
Campus Ragz
Claire's Accessories
CNS Jewelry & Watch Repair
Designs Place
Dial N Style/Cell King
Elegant Nails
Francesca's Collections
Game Stop
Hallmark
Hot Topic
Icing by Claire's
Jason White's Store Divided
JCPenney
Journeys
Journeys Kidz
Justice

I'll stop at the J's. These tenants are all the anti-thesis to upscale. However, I will say that I understand a lot of these are grandfathered tenants that the mall is waiting for their lease to expire--and if they have a new wing planned that really does have interest from those kinds of retailers, then good for Penn Square and OKC.

But I think right now, to call Penn Square "upscale" by any stretch of the imagination is absurd.

Your out of touch again. Several of those are upscale women's retailers, especially Apricot Lane (a national chain).

[metro]

Spartan. You were wrong for presuming that all of us liken Penn Square to a Galleria, somehow falsely justifying a STUPID and biased generalization that it's somehow a dump. I think we all agree that Penn Square Mall isn't a exactly the most renowned of places, but it's nice, modern, and more successful than any other in Oklahoma. Funny when everyone disagree's with your little rant, you decide to somehow blame it on an assumption of yours that you must have pulled right out of thin air. I think the distinction between a Galleria and Penn is clear to all but only the most polarized of opinions...

Well said. Spartan is proving himself more out of touch wih reality with each post. He assumes no one but him travels. No one says it's north park or galleria in Dallas yet he is the one doing the judging.

[GaryOKC6]

Well said. Spartan is proving himself more out of touch wih reality with each post. He assumes no one but him travels. No one says it's north park or galleria in Dallas yet he is the one doing the judging.

+1

[Spartan]

Well said. Spartan is proving himself more out of touch wih reality with each post. He assumes no one but him travels. No one says it's north park or galleria in Dallas yet he is the one doing the judging.

Then what if I told you that Penn Square was a giant liberal conspiracy being perpetrated by the U.N.? :-P

But seriously, you guys' inability to address the factual content of my posts is beginning to irk me. It seems like once again I have struck a nerve. Also, these threads do NOT need to become about me. I hate it when people do that, fine make the thread about refuting a comment I made, but I don't see where this calls for anything personal. If I want to be personal friends, or personally acknowledge some of you, trust me I'll let you know. There are a lot of people on this forum that I am well-acquainted with.

We have these de-personalized little graphics to the side of our screen name, above each post. That is my representation of me as a person to you, unless I give you otherwise. Think of me as a robot that doesn't want to personally associate with others, if that helps. A big, evil U.N. conspiracy robot...

That absolutely goes for you too, Newlon. If I want to personally relate with you, I'll let you know. As for my post content, that's all entirely fair game. Call me out on facts if you have them. I'm more than happy to talk ideas and issues with you, since sometimes you do have good fact-based posts.

[bombermwc]

Like usual, Spartan is off base...100%.

FYI - Penn Square is also the most profitable mall per square foot, in the entire U.S. So if you think it's going anywhere any time soon, you're nuts. On top of that, the expansion plans they have will SIGNIFICANTLY increase their square footage and add more box space. So if anything, they're are gonig to be doing even better soon. If they had the land, they'd qualify for Galleria size status. They simply can't squeeze enough parking garage in to make it happen on that land footprint and they're boxed in.

And if you dont' consider it upscale, fine, thats an opinion. I don't personaly consider it upscale if you're comparing it something like what 50 Penn USED to be. Do I care though? Not in the least bit. It's a nice mall and you can't argue against that. It's got nice stores in it and the environment is nice. What more do you need?

[Spartan]

Like usual, Spartan is off base...100%.

FYI - Penn Square is also the most profitable mall per square foot, in the entire U.S. So if you think it's going anywhere any time soon, you're nuts. On top of that, the expansion plans they have will SIGNIFICANTLY increase their square footage and add more box space. So if anything, they're are gonig to be doing even better soon. If they had the land, they'd qualify for Galleria size status. They simply can't squeeze enough parking garage in to make it happen on that land footprint and they're boxed in.

And if you dont' consider it upscale, fine, thats an opinion. I don't personaly consider it upscale if you're comparing it something like what 50 Penn USED to be. Do I care though? Not in the least bit. It's a nice mall and you can't argue against that. It's got nice stores in it and the environment is nice. What more do you need?

Wow, imagine that, a few more ad hominems directed at me. I must say it's ironic as hell to be called off base by people such as metro and bomber, for whom, all it takes is one or two other posts disagreeing with me to jump on board and make it look like a flame war.

It's not a nice mall, and I think I can argue against that. IF they had the land they'd be a Galleria?

Metro, I hope you read that and it registered in the same place in your mind where you were convinced nobody is proclaiming Penn Square's greatness. And it's hardly the only example in this thread of delusions of Penn Square grandeur.

Can you prove that it's the most profitable mall in the U.S. by square foot? Not that it matters, because we've already established the reason for that...

[BDP]

Notice the automatic assumption that the mall is doing well,

That's not an assumption. It does do very well. A mall doesn't have to be upscale to do well and, in fact, is probably one reason why it has been successful. The real problem is that it does so well, it has to pay for all of Simon's malls that don't do well. If Simon was free of debt and able to expand it, they would probably do well with that too and would probably even get more tenants that meet your standards. I don't care for Penn Square mall, first and foremost simply because it's a mall, but one can not deny it does very well. These days, you can't say that any mall that is 99% leased isn't doing well.

[Bunty]

It's not a dump.

Spartan has simply been spoiled rotten by exploring actual upscale cities and neighborhoods out of state. Penn Square is really a nice mall for Oklahoma City. To deny it's nice, you might as well deny that Oklahoma City in a nice city.

[MikeLucky]

First off... calling Penn Square a dump, is just stupid. Not, misinformed... not, hyperbolic... Stupid.

Secondly, WTF would we do with a Galleria here anyway? I go to the Galleria in Dallas every now and again as a novelty thing... but I sure as hell don't need to buy anything there. In fact, I RARELY go to Penn Square and I live here.

Penn Square is about as upscale as we probably need here. And that's not just me being small minded or anything like that. It's just that the people that live in OKC and can afford $300 shirts and $600 dresses, already have local places to achieve that... the last thing we NEED is for it to be in a mall just so some elitists that don't even live here can feel like OKC can suddenly feel validated.

Plus, I will say this... I currently make a bit over twice the median income here in Oklahoma and I can live like a KING here. How is that wrong, somehow? Part of why that's true is because we DON'T need some super upscale mall to buy a bunch of crap that serves little other than to impress people that are impressed with such vapid endeavors.

[BDP]

It's just that the people that live in OKC and can afford $300 shirts and $600 dresses, already have local places to achieve that... the last thing we NEED is for it to be in a mall just so some elitists that don't even live here can feel like OKC can suddenly feel validated.

I agree. I would actually rather see more money spent at local stores than at a Nordstrom's anyway. The only problem is that there isn't a single source of shopping area for those local stores and so people still feel there is a limited selection here and take their money to Dallas, Chicago, Vegas, etc. for the high end stuff.

[soonerliberal]

This is really confusing. In one thread, I see cries and hopes that we will get stores like Urban Outfitters, Container Store, or a department store like Nordstrom. In this thread, I see people outwardly attacking because someone is making a hyperbolic argument that what we have is simply not good enough.

You can't say we need these stores in one hand and then say what we have is just peachy in another and be consistent in your argument. Just because a mall is financially successful does not mean it is of the quality we want. If that were the case, then the incredibly successful outlet malls would be the top of the line.

Regardless, I am of the opinion that Penn Square is a decent mid-grade mall. I am also of the opinion that while OKC's demographic data isn't as kind to stores that you see in cities of comparable size, we are blessed with a low cost of living, which in turn means there is a decent amount of disposable income. I truly believe that OKC could sustain a mid-high department store such as Nordstrom or Bloomingdales. However, I don't think we would be able to sustain a higher end store like Barney's or Nieman Marcus. We also obviously sustain many stores in OKC (J-Crew or Banana Republic) have that have a similar price point of stores we do not have like Diesel, Armani Exchange, Benetton, Lacoste, or even Brooks Brothers. However, many of those stores require certain other stores to be present or they need persuasion or incentives to come to the mall and city for that matter.

[BDP]

This is really confusing. In one thread, I see cries and hopes that we will get stores like Urban Outfitters, Container Store, or a department store like Nordstrom.

I know I am in the minority in OKC, but an UO or Container Store will not change my life or opinion of the city in any way. I honestly don't think those stores offer much in terms of value or validation. If we developed a strong consolidated retail district dominated by local retailers selling fashionable goods, then I'd be impressed.

[Spartan]

I give up. People on this forum just want in-fighting and insults, not discussion on actual issues and facts.

[BBatesokc]

I give up. People on this forum just want in-fighting and insults, not discussion on actual issues and facts.

Like your absurdly forwarded 'fact' that Penn Square is a "dump"?