Kd's Restaurant / Legacy Grill

[Skyline]

I was really hoping for a new parking lot at this location.

[Spartan]

I was really hoping for a Toby Keith's I Love This Town and Parking.

[sooner88]

You all are on the right track with a new restaurant...

[Spartan]

You all are on the right track with a new restaurant...

How about Tim McGraw's Hee-Haw Saloon and I Love My Bar Even More Than That Other Washout?

[BDP]

I was really hoping for a new parking lot at this location.

Ha! Give USA Screenprinting a call!

The reality is that there is really NO WAY to urbanize lower bricktown at this point without a complete overhaul. That section of the canal has been totally wasted. At the end of the day, as long as it isn't surface parking, filling that lot is good. What's interesting, is that this is IT for lower bricktown. Nothing more can be added without rethinking the parking layout. The problem is though that it has been so poorly developed that I doubt any demand significant enough to rethink it will ever surface. This will be built and then it will pretty much have to wallow in mediocrity until it gets to the point where it has to be put to sleep and re-imagined. However, even that is predicated in bricktown proper getting it stuff together, filling up the canal spaces and stop wasting its available development space on more surface parking.

Soon though, we'll start to see more demand influence from residents from deep deuce. If bricktown is to have a development resurgence, that will be the key, imo.

[catch22]

Ha! Give USA Screenprinting a call!

The reality is that there is really NO WAY to urbanize lower bricktown at this point without a complete overhaul. That section of the canal has been totally wasted. At the end of the day, as long as it isn't surface parking, filling that lot is good. What's interesting, is that this is IT for lower bricktown. Nothing more can be added without rethinking the parking layout. The problem is though that it has been so poorly developed that I doubt any demand significant enough to rethink it will ever surface. This will be built and then it will pretty much have to wallow in mediocrity until it gets to the point where it has to be put to sleep and re-imagined. However, even that is predicated in bricktown proper getting it stuff together, filling up the canal spaces and stop wasting its available development space on more surface parking.

Soon though, we'll start to see more demand influence from residents from deep deuce. If bricktown is to have a development resurgence, that will be the key, imo.

I agree with this. Looking at satellite pictures, it's difficult to fill lower bricktown in anymore....which is a shame with how much space is there. The layout destroys most reasonable ideas to fill it in. We need a creative solution.

[Dubya61]

Spartan, not just this thread, but is OKC Talk your favorite place to vent vitriol? Really, fellas. The only way to develop LBT, CBD, DD, SOSA, MOUSE, etc the way you want is to scrap capitalism completely, turn OKC into a city state and then nationalize everything to develop it just the way you want it. Should you like the way a free-market economy takes your favorite district? Not necessarily, and I agree that some restrictions should be placed on development in concert with a well-thought out plan. Sim City, now, THAT is the way to make sure you get just development you want, eh?

[Larry OKC]

Toby Keiths looks like a 2 story building from the outside, but it is largely a tall one-story on the inside (with the exception of Mr. Keith's private dining space behind the bar/above the kitchen area

[BoulderSooner]

Toby Keiths looks like a 2 story building from the outside, but it is largely a tall one-story on the inside (with the exception of Mr. Keith's private dining space behind the bar/above the kitchen area

not a private dining space .(it is used for parties) but is also used daily

[Spartan]

Spartan, not just this thread, but is OKC Talk your favorite place to vent vitriol? Really, fellas. The only way to develop LBT, CBD, DD, SOSA, MOUSE, etc the way you want is to scrap capitalism completely, turn OKC into a city state and then nationalize everything to develop it just the way you want it. Should you like the way a free-market economy takes your favorite district? Not necessarily, and I agree that some restrictions should be placed on development in concert with a well-thought out plan. Sim City, now, THAT is the way to make sure you get just development you want, eh?

Not at all, Dubya. In fact today I'm having a change of heart, if you can't tell from my questioning of these people's unreasonable ideas. I think we need more free market in Bricktown development, and the only way we can get that is with lower expectations, lower standards, and lower results. Vote for me.

[catch22]

Spartan, not just this thread, but is OKC Talk your favorite place to vent vitriol? Really, fellas. The only way to develop LBT, CBD, DD, SOSA, MOUSE, etc the way you want is to scrap capitalism completely, turn OKC into a city state and then nationalize everything to develop it just the way you want it. Should you like the way a free-market economy takes your favorite district? Not necessarily, and I agree that some restrictions should be placed on development in concert with a well-thought out plan. Sim City, now, THAT is the way to make sure you get just development you want, eh?

Capitalism built urban environments for years until the 1950's The problem is with the mindset of car. Capitalism works in suburban environments and urban environments. It depends on the vision of the developer. The developers like Richard McKnown (spelling?) understand that a pedestrian friendly mixed-use development can provide good profit opportunities as well as long term advantages. You have developers like Chris Johnson who see that Bricktown has a high number of people visiting it, and decide to build his business there. He just doesn't understand what downtown is about, and just sees potential dollars. I'm sure Chris has good intentions, he just has a different fundamental understanding of downtown. And his development reflects that. We need more developers who understand how downtown environments work , and less who are still stuck in the suburbs trying to get a slice of the pie of downtown, without understanding the difference fully.

[Urbanized]

Exactly. As long as suburban OKC continues to build itself around the automobile, we will see half-baked attempts at downtown development. Although lately, we have been getting better developments....

Without sending this thread off on a tangent, Bricktown's success and uphill struggle is it's tourism. We could probably get better development if it weren't for the tourist aspect and creating parking spaces for all of those tourists. But Bricktown's lifeline is also it's tourist traffic.

Bricktown is good, I just think it could be a lot better.

I disagree with the assessment that the big swaths of parking in Bricktown are primarily for "tourists." I interact with tourists, out-of-town business people, Bricktown workers and locals on a daily basis, and have for 10 years. "Tourists" mostly use the district the way many on here would like to see it used; IF THEY ARE IN A CAR AT ALL, they find a parking lot somewhere - anywhere - get out of their cars, and WALK the district. They are now the largest users of the Power Alley garage (hotel guests), followed by Bricktown employees. Locals mostly can't be bothered to use the garage, because they see it as an inconvenience and want surface parking instead.

Many tourists have told me they like downtown OKC and Bricktown specifically because they feel they don't even need a car at all when here.

Tourists are the ONLY people who utilize the trolleys, as far as I can tell. They don't gripe about walking, ever (and also never gripe about paying to park; in fact most of them think it's funny that Okies get riled up over $5 parking).

The giant swaths of parking in Bricktown are there to satisfy suburban OKC visitors who pack the place on weekends and event nights, want parking as close to their venue as possible, of course want this strip-mall style parking for nothing or next to it. They want to roll in for lunch, park a few feet away, and roll right back out. Those are the people who have created the demand, and many of those are the people who have griped about a "lack" of parking for years to anyone who would listen, creating a relatively baseless perception that drove development of even more spaces.

OKC folks should really get over viewing "tourists" or visitors in a negative light. While I agree that "tourist-Y" is not good (we need authenticity in downtown, which oddly enough most tourists would prefer anyway), touristS are just people who drop off new money in our economy without asking that much in return.

[Larry OKC]

not a private dining space .(it is used for parties) but is also used daily

When built, that is what we were told by management...it was private dining space reserved for Mr. Keith and his invited guests. But thanks for the updated info.

[Just the facts]

Thanks for that post Catch22. I guess the car culture is so ingrained into the general populace that they don't realize capitalism existed centuries before the automobile. If anything, the automobile is the exact opposite of free market. Subsidies for automakers, roads, taxpayer funded traffic enforcement, oil subsidies, wars for oil, cash for clunkers, UAW political influence, etc etc etc... A world has been created since the 1950s that require a car. If you don't think so, try living without one for 7 days. So sit back and enjoy $4 gas - you don't have a choice. So much for free-market.

[Larry OKC]

I disagree with the assessment that the big swaths of parking in Bricktown are primarily for "tourists." I interact with tourists, out-of-town business people, Bricktown workers and locals on a daily basis, and have for 10 years. "Tourists" mostly use the district the way many on here would like to see it used; IF THEY ARE IN A CAR AT ALL, they find a parking lot somewhere, get out of their cars, and WALK the district. They are now the largest users of the Power Alley garage (hotel guests), followed by Bricktown employees. Locals mostly can't be bothered to use the garage, because they see it as an inconvenience and want surface parking.

Many tourists have told me they like downtown OKC and Bricktown specifically because they feel they don't even need a car at all when here.

Tourists are the ONLY people who utilize the trolleys, as far as I can tell. They don't gripe about walking, ever (and also never gripe about paying to park, in fact most of them think it's funny that Okies get riled up over $5 parking).

The giant swaths of parking in Bricktown are there to satisfy suburban OKC visitors who pack the place on weekends and event nights, want parking as close to their venue as possible, of course want this strip-mall style parking for nothing or next to it. Those are the people who have created the demand, and those are the people who have griped about a "lack" of parking for years to anyone who would listen, creating a relatively baseless perception.

OKC folks should really get over viewing "tourists" or visitors in a negative light. While I agree that "tourist-Y" is not good (we need authenticity in downtown, which oddly enough tourists would prefer anyway), touristS are just people who drop off new money in our economy without asking that much in return.

Funny how that "perception" is quickly becoming reality (even the City admits this now in recent articles by Steve)

[Urbanized]

The parking shortage problem is almost entirely on the other side of the tracks, Larry. There is rarely a shortage of spaces in Bricktown, even on the busiest of nights. Sometimes there is certainly a shortage of just-across-the-street parking, but frankly I'd be happy if it was always that way. That is the sign of a thriving area.

While I would LOVE to see centralized, structured parking added in Bricktown, it would mostly be to consolidate existing spaces, allowing for development of surface lots. The perception that there is a "shortage" in Bricktown is still that; a relatively baseless perception.

[Just the facts]

I think by 'tourist' catch22 was including anyone who doesn't live/work downtown. A visitor from Edmond is still a tourist in Bricktown.

[Dubya61]

Not at all, Dubya. In fact today I'm having a change of heart, if you can't tell from my questioning of these people's unreasonable ideas. I think we need more free market in Bricktown development, and the only way we can get that is with lower expectations, lower standards, and lower results. Vote for me.

Spartan, I don't think you should lower your standards -- maybe your volume, though. Just realize that unless you're the developer or city planner who has enacted codes in advance based on a credible plan for the area, you probably don't have a say in what happens there. What you can do is snipe and declare your displeasure on a message board. Yeah, I guess I will vote for you. What are you running for? The OKCTalk Court Jester?

[mmonroe]

If a certain family would pull a certain part of their body out of another part of their body, this could all be fixed. Flat surface parking should rarely exist in my opinion, for areas like this. Imagine these lots charging $5 - $20 depending on the event and their location, actually building a desired and much needed parking garage, the problem would be solved. End of story.

[Bullbear]

looks as uninteresting as Toby keiths. I think that building is just horrible looking. so cheap.
if it is only going to be one story and a resteraunt then put a roof top patio on it.. at least that is a bit more interesting.. but for the most part that area of bricktown is not very interesting.. it looks cheap

[Just the facts]

LBT is so confusing to me. I honestly don't see a long-term vision for it. Not without another MAPS investment. It needs some pretty drastic corrections.

Enter the CAT D8 Urban Do-over Tool (aka The Mulligan). We have had enough half-ass. It is time for some full-ass.

[OKCTransplant]

$700,000 building permit today for a 10,200 square foot shell building to be located between Harkins Theater and Toby Keith's on the canal.

Anybody know what this is for?

It's Kevin Durant's new southern cuisine restaurant with a price point slightly higher than Toby Keith's.

[Architect2010]

We just need to get rid of everything south of Reno save the plaza, The Centennial, Harkins and its accessory building, and... umm. The U-Haul building. I would care less if all the rest went.

[Urbanized]

I think by 'tourist' catch22 was including anyone who doesn't live/work downtown. A visitor from Edmond is still a tourist in Bricktown.

Yeah, but by that definition most retail/restaurant clusters in central OKC (Plaza, Paseo, Western Avenue, Midtown, 9th, Automobile Alley) are all primarily supported by "tourists." When any of them are busy at all, most of the people got there by automobile. The painfully slow nights are the ones where only neighborhood folks are eating'drinking/shopping.

It's going to be a long, long time before most of these places are populated enough to be busy based only on the people who live immediately around them, especially in downtown proper.

[BDP]

The only way to develop LBT, CBD, DD, SOSA, MOUSE, etc the way you want is to scrap capitalism completely, turn OKC into a city state and then nationalize everything to develop it just the way you want it.

This is a strange response on a lot of levels. Mainly, no one even suggested any nationalization or even government influence to guide lower bricktown developers. The irony, though, is that lower bricktown would not even exist were it not for significant public investment and the developer was hand picked by a government agency. Besides that, the reality is that pure capitalism can and DOES create well thought out redevelopments that are both dense and urban that are VERY successful. At the same time, it creates a lot of uninspiring disposable developments. But, criticism of any development based on its merits is in no way inherently a criticism on the economic model that produced it. I don't even understand where that came from, especially since pure free market principles had very little to do with the development of lower bricktown in the first place.

The reality is that, in this specific case, the model used was the currently popular "public-private" model where significant public investment precedes the investment of a private investor who is hand picked by local government agencies. Public incentives were even later used to entice a tenant to locate there, one which many view as completely counter to the purpose of the original public investment. You would think that after all this risk was eliminated for the developer using public resources, that it would go above and beyond to create something special. In this case, the opposite was true and there is now very little room, if any, for capitol improvements, be they private or public, and little demand to warrant it.