What will/should be in MAPS 4?

[Sheetkeecker]

An easy smart plan to extend a rail line to Norman and the OU campus to downtown and Bricktown. with the ability to ride it home late as well, would probably be cost effective. Like the old days when the Interurban ran from Norman to OKC. The old rails are still under the asphalt on Main Street in Norman.

[Hutch]

Based on the comments/question on the other page, I think there may be a bit of confusion between what all of BRT/Rail Technologies are, how much space they take up, and what they cost.

I'll try to clear up some of the rail confusion.

Light Rail involves electrified "lighter" rail transit vehicles operating on "lighter" gauge track in their own dedicated right-of-way. DART in Dallas is a good example of Light Rail. Modern Streetcars are actually a form of Light Rail vehicle, except they operate in the street with the flow of traffic. Developing a DART-type Light Rail system today costs $60-$80 million per mile. That means that Light Rail between Edmond and Norman would cost about $2 billion dollars...and Light Rail to Will Rogers would cost more than $500 million...and Light Rail out to NW Expressway would cost more than $1 billion. That's more than $3.5 billion. We're talking MAPS 4-10 here.

Commuter Rail involves "heavier" diesel-electricric locomotives with coach cars similar to the Heartland Flyer operating on "heavier" gauge tracks, usually within existing railroad right-of-ways. The New Mexico Rail Runner in Albuquerque and the Trinity Rail Express in Dallas are good examples of Commuter Rail. Commuter Rail can be developed for $8-$10 million per mile.

We have existing railroad corridors from OKC to Edmond, Norman, Midwest City, Tinker, NE OKC, Will Rogers, the Fairgrounds and the Adventure District, all of which can be developed as Commuter Rail for a fraction of the cost of Light Rail. With a total mileage count of about 60 miles, you could probably have that entire system operational along with a fabulous redeveloped intermodal hub for about 1/4 of the total cost of Light Rail from Edmond to Norman. Not to mention the fact that double-deck commuter rail coach cars have bathrooms and the seating is much more comfortable.

[ljbab728]

No, the promise was "We have a lot of neighborhoods without any sidewalks. We need every neighborhood to have sidewalks, at least on one side of the street. Vote for [2007 General Bond Issue/MAPS 3] and we'll put sidewalks in your neighborhood." The quotes are inexact, but this is what I remember & one of the major reasons I supported both issues, even over my objection to a new convention center in MAPS 3. Look at the sidewalks being built for the 2007 Bond Issue. There are at several square miles of neighborhoods like Mayfair West getting sidewalks for the first time. (Every street in the section is slated for sidewalks.) Yet a less affluent neighborhood like mine (Mayfair East) is completely left out. The promise wasn't "we're going to put sidewalks in affluent areas only".

John, please note this quote from the summary of Maps 3 projects on the city website.

The 2007 bond issue included $68 million for sidewalks next to all resurfacing projects, but this (Maps 3) sidewalks project is focused on strategic placement of sidewalks in areas of potentially high foot traffic.

http://www.okc.gov/maps3/summary.html

I think maybe you are just remembering what you hoped would happen.

[mugofbeer]

While we're dreaming - - how about MAPS4 to buy all the land south of the Fairgrounds to the river to hold a sports stadium. No, not the NFL stadium necessarily but a nice sized 40K or so stadium for HS football, regulation soccer, and concerts. Fairgraounds canals could be built running from the dammed up river into the fairgrounds for weekend and fair-time water taxis. Plenty of room for other things. What else?

[Snowman]

While we're dreaming - - how about MAPS4 to buy all the land south of the Fairgrounds to the river to hold a sports stadium. No, not the NFL stadium necessarily but a nice sized 40K or so stadium for HS football, regulation soccer, and concerts. Fairgraounds canals could be built running from the dammed up river into the fairgrounds for weekend and fair-time water taxis. Plenty of room for other things. What else?

Unless the Stockyards closes there are nicer options than the Fairgrounds, about a third of the time depending on wind direction & speed the area around the fairgrounds smells terrible.

[JohnH_in_OKC]

John, please note this quote from the summary of Maps 3 projects on the city website.



http://www.okc.gov/maps3/summary.html

I think maybe you are just remembering what you hoped would happen.

About a year ago, I accused the Mayor of speaking with forked tongue. Although I approve of most everything he is doing for OKC, I really think he said something almost verbatim that 'EVERY neighborhood without sidewalks would be getting them on one side of the street' when selling the 2007 General Obligation Bond Issue and then repeated that quote when selling MAPS 3 to the public. I am just disappointed that my neighborhood (and many others) are being denied sidewalks while many other neighborhoods, probably with better political ties, are getting new sidewalks on every street. Heritage Hills (where I grew up) got new sidewalks on both sides of the road about 1½ years ago, when they already had existing sidewalks. It just seems unfair that our affluent neighborhoods are getting sidewalks in lieu of our less affluent neighborhoods. EVERY neighborhood should be getting sidewalks for their streets and that should be a major priority of the city, and if not, we need to adjust our priorities.

[JohnH_in_OKC]

Reply deleted by author.

[JohnH_in_OKC]

However, if we citizens are already paying $5.00 each to fund our bus system (probably out of OKC general revenues), we need to look for a permanent revenue supplement to support the future expansion of our transit/bus system. Ridership fares are not sufficient. What does Edmond do to finance its free bus system?

I learned from an APT email that the citizens of OKC pay $20 per resident from its General Fund to operate transit, not $5.00. APT is an acronym for Oklahoma Alliance for Public Transportation. My error. -- John H.

You may want to put Friday, April 20th on your schedule. OKC is having a FREE ride day on all METRO Transit buses as part of Earth Month. Maps and schedules can be found at the METRO Transit website: http://www.gometro.org/ I'll be participating that day & I plan to ride to Quail Springs.

[Snowman]

I learned from an APT email that the citizens of OKC pay $20 per resident from its General Fund to operate transit, not $5.00. APT is an acronym for Oklahoma Alliance for Public Transportation. My error. -- John H.

You may want to put Friday, April 20th on your schedule. OKC is having a FREE ride day on all METRO Transit buses as part of Earth Month. Maps and schedules can be found at the METRO Transit website: http://www.gometro.org/ I'll be participating that day & I plan to ride to Quail Springs.

Shadid had an interesting point that since the fares cover such a trivial amount of the cost to operate the buses, it seems like it might be worth seeing what benefits we would get by paying the remainder.

[BoulderSooner]

I'll try to clear up some of the rail confusion.

Light Rail involves electrified "lighter" rail transit vehicles operating on "lighter" gauge track in their own dedicated right-of-way. DART in Dallas is a good example of Light Rail. Modern Streetcars are actually a form of Light Rail vehicle, except they operate in the street with the flow of traffic. Developing a DART-type Light Rail system today costs $60-$80 million per mile. That means that Light Rail between Edmond and Norman would cost about $2 billion dollars...and Light Rail to Will Rogers would cost more than $500 million...and Light Rail out to NW Expressway would cost more than $1 billion. That's more than $3.5 billion. We're talking MAPS 4-10 here.

Commuter Rail involves "heavier" diesel-electricric locomotives with coach cars similar to the Heartland Flyer operating on "heavier" gauge tracks, usually within existing railroad right-of-ways. The New Mexico Rail Runner in Albuquerque and the Trinity Rail Express in Dallas are good examples of Commuter Rail. Commuter Rail can be developed for $8-$10 million per mile.

We have existing railroad corridors from OKC to Edmond, Norman, Midwest City, Tinker, NE OKC, Will Rogers, the Fairgrounds and the Adventure District, all of which can be developed as Commuter Rail for a fraction of the cost of Light Rail. With a total mileage count of about 60 miles, you could probably have that entire system operational along with a fabulous redeveloped intermodal hub for about 1/4 of the total cost of Light Rail from Edmond to Norman. Not to mention the fact that double-deck commuter rail coach cars have bathrooms and the seating is much more comfortable.

thanks for the great recap