What will/should be in MAPS 4?

[bige]

I wanted to post and see what peoples ideas were for a MAPS 4. With all the great things the program has done for the city it will only be a matter of time after the current MAPS is finished that a MAPS 4 will happen. I really think with all the progress we've made as a city and the current momentum we're only it will really be something that propels us into the future as a city on the rise.

One idea I really like is to build a large multipurpose/football stadium somewhere downtown. Maybe near the new central park on some of the land between the new I-40 crosstown and the old I-40. With a world class stadium it would put us as one of the first in line for a team that moves or if the NFL expands. I really believe an NFL team here would SHOOT us into becoming a world class city. Can you imagine! Thunder AND the NFL!? There are currently 10 NFL cities with a metro population of 2 million or less (already larger then 4 of those.) By the time a MAPS 4 would be passed we would be well over 1.5 million in our metro and with tulsa and the rest of the state thrown it we would be able to support it no problem. Plus it would bring in SO much money into our economy. Just something I would throw out there.

What other ideas does everyone have for a MAPS 4?

[kevinpate]

IF there is a MAPs IV, it may prove to be more of a finish M3 situation. Sidewalks scaled back, park scaled back, senior center scaled back, numerous questions exist re viability of the cc, and at least an appearance of efforts to peel back the streetcar. The fairgrounds seems ok but that seems about it for the time being.

[JohnH_in_OKC]

I don't know if we'll be able to support an NFL team along with the Thunder until MAPS 5 or 6. We will likely have to wait until after San Antonio gets an NFL team since they are a bigger market and already have an outstanding indoor stadium.

One thing we do need to do is fulfill the promises that Mayor Mick made when he promised that all neighborhoods without any sidewalks would get them with the passage of the 2007 General Bond Issue and MAPS 3. My neighborhood, Mayfair West, is being left out of new sidewalks although Mayfair East will get new sidewalks per the 2007 Bond Issue. We need to rectify this deficiency in all neighborhoods lacking sidewalks before starting any new projects.

[JohnH_in_OKC]

If the Senior Centers are pared back by removing the pools, no one will come. I am signed up at the Will Rogers Senior Center and never go since there is no indoor pool. The indoor pools are a REQUIREMENT if the Senior "Aquatic" Centers are to be built.

I strongly suggest the city leaders move the new convention center to MAPS 4 so that sidewalks, Senior Wellness "Aquatic" Centers can be built and the Central Park can be properly funded. We citizens (the majority of whom did not want a new convention center at this time) would be forever thankful.

[kevinpate]

Oh I left off the river front process seeming ok at the present. My bad.

[Of Sound Mind]

I still don't understand the need for public subsidy of senior wellness centers and its inclusion in MAPS III except to buy the senior vote for the initiative. There are plenty of wellness centers that seniors can and do use already -- like metro Y's.

At this point, based on the broken promises and the boondoggle MAPS III has proven to be, I think MAPS IV (and anything beyond) is a major pipedream.

[rcjunkie]

I still don't understand the need for public subsidy of senior wellness centers and its inclusion in MAPS III except to buy the senior vote for the initiative. There are plenty of wellness centers that seniors can and do use already -- like metro Y's.

At this point, based on the broken promises and the boondoggle MAPS III has proven to be, I think MAPS IV (and anything beyond) is a major pipedream.

Glad your in the minority, the Maps programs have been a big boom for this City (and will continue to be for years to come).

[CaptDave]

There is a combined stadium/arena concept in the Sports section that would be a great MAPS initiative eventually. The stadium seats around 25000 - 35000 and the arena 15000 I think. It is not a NFL stadium but one that would work very well for a Major League Soccer (I HATE that name) team. I believe we are far more likely to have an MLS franchise here in the next 10 years than NFL. NFL is probably more of a 20 year target if at all because that depends on the league expansion plans. The concept would also permit the Barons AHL team to move from the Cox Convention Center arena thereby removing an obstacle to that building being demolished and that block being redeveloped.

Other than that - more streetcar!!! Transit development is actually my #1 hope for MAPS 4. Extend the fledgling streetcar system approved in MAPS 3 to serve more areas that have been identified by the Streetcar Subcommittee. Additionally, funding for commuter rail and / or light rail in the cooridors that have already been identifed and studied extensively.

[MikeOKC]

I still don't understand the need for public subsidy of senior wellness centers and its inclusion in MAPS III except to buy the senior vote for the initiative. There are plenty of wellness centers that seniors can and do use already -- like metro Y's.

I think for most, it's about keeping promises. These centers were a major part of the initiative. The sidewalks are a must. Streetcars.

Maps IV? Not until Maps III is truly finished and finished without broken promises. If the powers that be were to proceed with any kind of Maps IV - without fulfilling the promises of MAPS III - they can just forget it.

Put me down against any kind of stadium. Not for another 10-20 years.

[soonerliberal]

MAPS 4 would certainly have to be very balanced with projects being in both the downtown/inner city area as well as in the suburban areas of OKC proper. Looking at the vote of MAPS 3, it is obvious where the least amount of support is coming from. I personally believe investing in a strong core to the city makes our city better as a whole, but many people look at "what is in it for me and my neighborhood".

[betts]

I agree that MAPS III has to be satisfactory to the public before voters will consider a MAPS IV. However, there's a lot of sturm und drang before a single project has been started, much less completed. I'm willing to wait and see what they do with the money they collect within the MAPS III collection timeframe. I realize that construction costs are difficult to estimate, and so we might not get everything precisely as promised. As long as everything is reduced proportionally if expenses have risen, I'm O.K. What I don't want to see is money taken from other projects to build a $400 million convention center. That would make a lot of voters balk at MAPS IV, me included.

On my wish list for MAPS IV, unsurprisingly, is completion of the envisioned transit hub and more miles of streetcar line.

[Snowman]

I don't know if we'll be able to support an NFL team along with the Thunder until MAPS 5 or 6. We will likely have to wait until after San Antonio gets an NFL team since they are a bigger market and already have an outstanding indoor stadium. ...

It has almost been twenty years since San Antonio built the Alamodome and they still do not seem on the edge of luring a team. Even if they got one today the Alamodome would be the 11 oldest stadiums in the league, by 2017 it will be one of the 5 oldest. 2005 estimates say it needs at least 100-150 million to meet the minimum standards, still placing the team at a competitive disadvantage on the revenue side and questionably profitable so could require around a billion dollars of local capital to buy a existing team (unless they do another expansion which would have a similar cost to buy franchise rights).

[adaniel]

MAPS 4 would certainly have to be very balanced with projects being in both the downtown/inner city area as well as in the suburban areas of OKC proper. Looking at the vote of MAPS 3, it is obvious where the least amount of support is coming from. I personally believe investing in a strong core to the city makes our city better as a whole, but many people look at "what is in it for me and my neighborhood".

Agree completely. While its very hard to call something a "boondoggle" that has just begun, the actual vote of MAPs 3 laid bare some pretty deep divisions in this city, especially in areas south of the river.

Downtown at this point has a lot of self-sustaining momentum, and outside public transit any future projects should radiate out of the core. Also, Mick Cornett has gone on the record saying no future NFL/NHL expansions in the works for OKC and we should instead focus on supporting the Thunder long term, so no NFL stadium.

[MikeOKC]

Agree completely. While its very hard to call something a "boondoggle" that has just begun, the actual vote of MAPs 3 laid bare some pretty deep divisions in this city, especially in areas south of the river.

Downtown at this point has a lot of self-sustaining momentum, and outside public transit any future projects should radiate out of the core. Also, Mick Cornett has gone on the record saying no future NFL/NHL expansions in the works for OKC and we should instead focus on supporting the Thunder long term, so no NFL stadium.

Very good points. I agree about the need to continue investing in the city core. But, there have also been cities that have put so much money into their downtown areas that neighborhoods are neglected. We need strong neighborhoods and strong city support all over the metro - and not in just the wealthier zip codes, either.

[progressiveboy]

Like to see half go to sidewalks and pedestrian facilities city-wide. Let's get sidewalks everywhere. Second, I would like to see every bus route get actual stops. Lastly, want to see about 15 more miles of streetcar and major work done downtown to bring transit together -- either a major hub or an arrangement of transfer stations.

Sidewalks should be a standard amenity for any large metropolitan city! Maybe MAPS 4 should concentrate on the atrious roads in OKC. OKC needs all concrete roadways to fix the atrocious roads that abound in OKC. They really are an embarrasement and you think OKC residents would demand better?? Asphalt roads do not last very long.

[ljbab728]

One thing we do need to do is fulfill the promises that Mayor Mick made when he promised that all neighborhoods without any sidewalks would get them with the passage of the 2007 General Bond Issue and MAPS 3. My neighborhood, Mayfair West, is being left out of new sidewalks although Mayfair East will get new sidewalks per the 2007 Bond Issue. We need to rectify this deficiency in all neighborhoods lacking sidewalks before starting any new projects.

John, I don't remember ever seeing a promise that every neighborhood would get sidewalks from that bond issue. And please note that the city is only about half way through with the bond issue process. As shown here, it was to be a 10 year program.

http://www.okc.gov/bonds2007/

[jonno]

Overhaul/restore Taft Stadium.

[reverend]

I have seen the MAPS projects a major positive for our city. However, I think I would prefer doing major projects one at a time, like we did with the Ford Center, err, Chesapeake Arena renovations. I was in favor of some of the projects in MAPS 3 and against others. Plus, a one cent decrease in the tax rate would be welcome for a couple years I think.

[ljbab728]

I have seen the MAPS projects a major positive for our city. However, I think I would prefer doing major projects one at a time, like we did with the Ford Center, err, Chesapeake Arena renovations. I was in favor of some of the projects in MAPS 3 and against others. Plus, a one cent decrease in the tax rate would be welcome for a couple years I think.

Reverend, as has been noted many times, many previous very successful Maps projects would have never been approved that way. We absolutely would not have had the canal and likely not the new arena the first time it was voted on. Most people would never notice a one cent reduction in sales tax.

[Cocaine]

I'd like to see light rail between 20 and 30 miles of light rail in okc.

[Urban Pioneer]

For the rail supporters on here, the easy additions to what we are doing in MAPS 3 are-

Extensions of Phase 1 streetcar through the Plaza up to OCU/Health Sciences other direction
BRT or Light Rail up NW Expressway
Connections to the airport
Our sections in our city limits to Edmond, Moore, Del CIty
The connection to Tinker needs a new bridge over the OK River that also could include a trail/pedestrian component

But with all that infrastructure comes ongoing operational costs. Therefore if people in the public are serious, discussions need to begin on a Regional Transit Authority and an ongoing permanent financing mechanism.

Otherwise, scale it back to an Airport, NE Corridor, NW Exp, and Streetcar Extensions, and there might be some way to fund service without a grand regional mechnism, but even that is highly doubtful.

Its kinda like enegy policy, everyone talks around the periphery, but no one is willing to make the big steps as of yet to actual get it done.

Jeff Bezdek, MAPS 3 Transit Subcommittee

[CaptDave]

I vote to let you write the MAPS 4 ballot!

[OKCisOK4me]

How long was it after MAPS 1 was initiated when we started seeing actual construction of the various projects? Are we coming to that point yet? I will stay reserved on the subject until that time. 15+ years between MAPS and MAPS 3? We have a long way to go, but even so, I'm on the glass half empty side of another MAPS 4 right now. Seems no one in this city, other than Mr. Jeff Bezdek, knows how to attempt to get the job done.

[Urban Pioneer]

How long was it after MAPS 1 was initiated when we started seeing actual construction of the various projects? Are we coming to that point yet? I will stay reserved on the subject until that time. 15+ years between MAPS and MAPS 3? We have a long way to go, but even so, I'm on the glass half empty side of another MAPS 4 right now. Seems no one in this city, other than Mr. Jeff Bezdek, knows how to attempt to get the job done.

Many thanks for the kind comments.

[Hutch]

But with all that infrastructure comes ongoing operational costs. Therefore if people in the public are serious, discussions need to begin on a Regional Transit Authority and an ongoing permanent financing mechanism.

Jeff's right...a regional transit system (intermodal hub, commuter rail, light rail, streetcar, bus) will require a Regional Transit Authority (RTA) to operate it and a dedicated funding source to pay for it. If we want to have a regional transit system fully operational in 10 years, then we will need to have a Regional Transit District (RTD) and associated dedicated funding mechanism approved in 5-6 years, which fits the timeframe of the end of MAPS 3 and the potential beginning of MAPS 4. As it's probably not advisable to try to pass separate tax dedications for funding MAPS 4 and a regional transit system back to back, those would need to be pakaged together. If those are the goals, then we will need to have an RTA in place in the next 3-4 years. That means the various cities that will be involved in funding the regional transit system need to begin official discussions on the establishing an RTA in the next year or so.

The bottom-line is that if we hope to have commuter rail, light rail, bus rapid transit and other elements of a regional transit system developed and operational in a decade, we must begin planning now for how to manage and fund the system.