General Urban Development

[bombermwc]

But that's a HUUUUUGE difference Spartan.....Lease vs. Rental. Rental is somethingi do feel there is a market for, but not lease. We've seen SOOOO much upscale lease lately, that's where the market is saturated. Rental is a whole other ballgame. That's exactlly why Deep Deuce is still moving at a steady pace.

For some reason developers in downtown feel like the only option for an old building is to turn it into an upscale lease structure. THAT market has been tapped (for now). I still stand by my statement that lowering the cost (and amenities) could open a new market.

On a side note to Carnegie, that very thing is about to be done in Bricktown with the old steel company land. Although I feel like it's going too far in the cheap direction. They're talking about $500 a month there because it will fall under Federal "Affordable Housing" plans. Which to me means, Section 8.....bleh.

[betts]

I'm not sure I understand the difference between lease and rental. Do you mean week to week rentals? Or month to month? If you mean cheaper leases, well, as I've said quite a few times, is it a God-given right for everyone who wants to to live downtown? If developers can make money on cheap rentals, do we want the cheap construction that by definition has to go with that downtown? If people want cheap rentals, someone should start buying the buildings all along the rail line from 4th to 12th and put bare bones lofts with a toilet, sink and shower in them. That's the kind of place you get in most cities for inexpensive prices. Then, as the area becomes more desirable, people take the bare bones lofts and upgrade them. But do we seriously want some throw it up and skimp on materials buildings built downtown? Not me, even if I didn't live downtown. That's not how you draw people downtown. Try and find affordable housing in downtown San Francisco, Chicago or Manhattan. You have to put four people in a two bedroom apartment, or find some piece of a building no one wants.

I don't consider any for rent downtown upscale except maybe the Montgomery, and I've never checked out prices there. Even LEVEL doesn't look upscale to me. Nice, yes. Upscale is a highrise with a doorman, to me. I think we will tap out the rental market downtown, but I don't see any evidence it's happened yet.

[Spartan]

Oy vey..

But that's a HUUUUUGE difference Spartan.....Lease vs. Rental. Rental is somethingi do feel there is a market for, but not lease. We've seen SOOOO much upscale lease lately, that's where the market is saturated. Rental is a whole other ballgame. That's exactlly why Deep Deuce is still moving at a steady pace.

For some reason developers in downtown feel like the only option for an old building is to turn it into an upscale lease structure. THAT market has been tapped (for now). I still stand by my statement that lowering the cost (and amenities) could open a new market.

On a side note to Carnegie, that very thing is about to be done in Bricktown with the old steel company land. Although I feel like it's going too far in the cheap direction. They're talking about $500 a month there because it will fall under Federal "Affordable Housing" plans. Which to me means, Section 8.....bleh.

"Lease" is the name of the document which one must sign in order to get a rental unit. Keep in mind, the only implied difference between lease and rent is that rent sort of means week-to-week/month-to-month, and the only downtown apartment complex like that is on the edge of SoSA, and you don't wanna live there. Maybe a few I'm not aware of in C2S or east of 235... and I assure you in this instance, Deep Deuce would be LEASE. They are not letting people live there on a weekly/monthly basis. You sign an agreement for a year or so many months, whatever.

I also think you're even more off-base on the East Bricktown development. Which is saying something...

[lasomeday]

LOL! I was going to rent in bricktown, but I will lease in downtown!

[bombermwc]

Well i'm so glad that i have you, Spartan, to help me out. Except, oh there's that thing where you aren't always just right because you say so.

And you're a bit confused on the lease issue as well. The type of lease agreement makes a huge difference in how you define what is lease/rental. Any apartment complex signs a lease. 6months / 1 year / whatever. The rights the person has to the apartment make a huge difference though. I don't really feel like playing educator all day on how these diffrence play out though. You can do some google searches if you feel, because i'm sure all you're going to do it come back and tell me I'm wrong anyway. Keep in mind, everything I've said here came from the developer...but i'm sure you know better than the developer on their own project as well.

[Spartan]

Bomber, what are you talking about? You were last seen lambasting them gosh darned upscale lease developments, because the market wants rental units after all. Now watching you cover your tracks is becoming painful.

I have signed a few leases in my life. You're just not going to get away with parlaying your ignorance of downtown development into me being in my 20's and not understanding a lease, which appears to be the plan you're going with.

I'll also remind you that were "text screaming" this as well, with capitalized words, exclamation marks, and all. You seemed very passionate that the market wanted rental units, gosh darnit, not them new fangled upscale lease units that they keep cranking out.

[Spartan]

But that's a HUUUUUGE difference Spartan.....Lease vs. Rental. Rental is somethingi do feel there is a market for, but not lease. We've seen SOOOO much upscale lease lately, that's where the market is saturated. Rental is a whole other ballgame. That's exactlly why Deep Deuce is still moving at a steady pace.

For some reason developers in downtown feel like the only option for an old building is to turn it into an upscale lease structure. THAT market has been tapped (for now). I still stand by my statement that lowering the cost (and amenities) could open a new market.

On a side note to Carnegie, that very thing is about to be done in Bricktown with the old steel company land. Although I feel like it's going too far in the cheap direction. They're talking about $500 a month there because it will fall under Federal "Affordable Housing" plans. Which to me means, Section 8.....bleh.

Quoted for truth...or ignorance, I'll let the reader decide.

I'll also remind people that the downtown lease market is 95% occupied. Good luck finding a unit, you'll need it.

[bombermwc]

You didn't make an arguement against me there buddy. I still stand by what i said. The least market is getting to the point where there isn't room for more. Just because it's 95% full, does NOT automatically equate to the need for more. The new space has to meet the requirements for those coming in, and this project did not do that. Those requirements could have simply been price...but last time I checked, a high price means upscale.

I'm not back-tracking. I'm still standing by what I previously said. And you still seem to be more interseted in making it a personal attack rather than listening to what the developer said.

I also stand by my comment on the affordable housing project. I don't believe section 8 housing is a good fit there. You go outside of downtown and tell me what $500 gets you...it's not even in the middle ground. What SHOULD be built it something under the $1K a month, but more in the $700 a month range. There are nice apartments all over town in that range...and it puts a totally different market base in the place than 500. To be honest, with it being section 8, perhaps you don't understand that it's government subsidized housing....ie projects without the projects. Does it have to be a Legacy project? No. Could a Case and Associates or McSha level project fit better? Probably.

[Just the facts]

I also stand by my comment on the affordable housing project. I don't believe section 8 housing is a good fit there.

You are correct - section 8 housing would be bad. The East Bricktown Apartments are not Section 8. You are confusing a government backed loan/grant to the builder vs direct cash payment subsidy to the renter. By reducing the cost to the builder he can charge a lower rent for a set amount of units vs a unit being at market price and the government giving the renter money to cover the expense.

Also: rent is what you pay the landord each month. A lease tells you how many months you have to do that.

[Spartan]

You didn't make an arguement against me there buddy. I still stand by what i said. The least market is getting to the point where there isn't room for more. Just because it's 95% full, does NOT automatically equate to the need for more. The new space has to meet the requirements for those coming in, and this project did not do that. Those requirements could have simply been price...but last time I checked, a high price means upscale.

I'm not back-tracking. I'm still standing by what I previously said. And you still seem to be more interseted in making it a personal attack rather than listening to what the developer said.

I also stand by my comment on the affordable housing project. I don't believe section 8 housing is a good fit there. You go outside of downtown and tell me what $500 gets you...it's not even in the middle ground. What SHOULD be built it something under the $1K a month, but more in the $700 a month range. There are nice apartments all over town in that range...and it puts a totally different market base in the place than 500. To be honest, with it being section 8, perhaps you don't understand that it's government subsidized housing....ie projects without the projects. Does it have to be a Legacy project? No. Could a Case and Associates or McSha level project fit better? Probably.

I think those are suburban developers who might be more interested in a plot of land on Memorial Road, if you know of any. We have lots of capable developers downtown, although we could always use more. But I think you're missing the point on the FHA "affordable housing" loans which is not Section 8. Similar loans were used on a number of upscale downtown projects. Only a certain number, a minority at that, have to be "affordable," which also does not mean $500 or Section 8.

The East Bricktown project will be just as high-quality as the Edge or countless other successful downtown projects. And if the Edge is not a good deal, you don't have to worry about us raising a stink, because we will.

But, since you're so enraged about the "this high price lease crap people keep trying to push isn't flying," I thought I'd offer you some inspiration:


You can just pretend he's saying the LEASE is too damn high, if you're still confused.

[Just the facts]

You can just pretend he's saying the LEASE is too damn high, if you're still confused.

Once again, the rent can be too high and the lease too long, but the lease can't be too high just like the rent can't be too long.

[Spartan]

Once again, the rent can be too high and the lease too long, but the lease can't be too high just like the rent can't be too long.

So what, you're saying that lease and for-rent aren't separate concepts, separate markets? Now that just crazy talk.

[Just the facts]

No, I am saying the rent is the amount of money you pay each month, the lease specifies how much the rent is and how many months you have to pay it.

[Rover]

Here is a short explanation I found if there is any confusion still. (sometimes I am amazed at what becomes contentious conversation on this site...lots of silly preening)

What's the difference between a rental agreement and a lease?

The biggest difference is the period of occupancy. A written rental agreement provides for a tenancy of a short period (often 30 days). The tenancy is automatically renewed at the end of this period unless the tenant or landlord ends it by giving written notice, typically 60 days. For these month-to-month rentals, the landlord can change the terms of the agreement with proper written notice, subject to any rent control laws. This notice is usually 60 days, but can be shorter in some states if the rent is paid weekly or bi-weekly, or if the landlord and tenant agree.

A written lease, on the other hand, gives a tenant the right to occupy a rental unit for a set term -- most often for six months or a year but sometimes longer -- if the tenant pays the rent and complies with other lease provisions. Unlike a rental agreement, when a lease expires it does not usually automatically renew itself. A tenant who stays on with the landlord's consent will generally be considered a month-to-month tenant, subject to the rental terms (such as a no pets clause) that were in the lease.

In addition, with a fixed-term lease, the landlord cannot raise the rent or change other terms of the tenancy during the lease, unless the changes are specifically provided for in the lease, or the tenant agrees.

[Spartan]

This is sad that we are going through these terms.

[Rover]

this is sad that we are going through these terms.

amen

[Just the facts]

The problem seems to derive from the belief that a 'lease' is a purchase, which 99.9% know it is not.

[Spartan]

The problem seems to derive from the belief that a 'lease' is a purchase, which 99.9% know it is not.

Now hold on for just a cotton picking minute Kerry! A purchase, as we all know, is a financial transaction upon receipt of goods. Now I knooow you don't mean to imply that a lease is not a purchase of occupancy inside a living unit for however long, because that would be...

[Just the facts]

you are going to confuse bomber.

[bombermwc]

OMFG - i never said it was going to be section 8, it was speculation and a desire for it to NOT be. But the price range is the issue. I also didn't say there weren't $700 units downtown. What I said was, that i think that price range would be better for these units.

Anyway.....

[betts]

Yup. Just as I predicted. It will start as LEVEL finishes, maximizing noise and mess. Oh well. I just hope the tenants don't litter like those at Deep Deuce. Our walks are basically litter removal.

[Spartan]

Yup. Just as I predicted. It will start as LEVEL finishes, maximizing noise and mess. Oh well. I just hope the tenants don't litter like those at Deep Deuce. Our walks are basically litter removal.

I have an idea. Let's just put a ban on all new housing projects and keep the riff raff making under $200,000/year out of downtown. And put up an electronic gate at the highway exits into downtown that lock up after 8 and require a high-tech electronic access card to get in. That will keep the riff raff out.

And getting the area expunged of filthy middle income inhabitants and traffic will surely cut down on litter. Ghost towns are normally renown for being immaculate.

[swilki]

Yup. Just as I predicted. It will start as LEVEL finishes, maximizing noise and mess. Oh well. I just hope the tenants don't litter like those at Deep Deuce. Our walks are basically litter removal.

Betts - I hadn't really thought about this or noticed this when I am down there (which is funny because I deal with this stuff all day long), but are there trash cans in Deep Deuce? If the area was smart, they would put some in if they aren't already there.

[betts]

Betts - I hadn't really thought about this or noticed this when I am down there (which is funny because I deal with this stuff all day long), but are there trash cans in Deep Deuce? If the area was smart, they would put some in if they aren't already there.

No, but that would be great. What we do is carry the trash until we come to one of the apartment dumpsters and get rid of it there. Trouble is, some of the apartment dwellers don't bother to do the same. It might be neater if there were a simple way to get rid of trash, although clearly some people just drop trash as they're walking in from their cars. We've got a fair amount around our house now, but it's primarily because of construction traffic. I've noticed that people who own their own homes are less likely to drop trash on the ground outside their dwelling.

[betts]

I have an idea. Let's just put a ban on all new housing projects and keep the riff raff making under $200,000/year out of downtown. And put up an electronic gate at the highway exits into downtown that lock up after 8 and require a high-tech electronic access card to get in. That will keep the riff raff out.

And getting the area expunged of filthy middle income inhabitants and traffic will surely cut down on litter. Ghost towns are normally renown for being immaculate.

A little histrionic aren't we? I have a better idea. Let's somehow figure out how to raise the consciousness of more people who are renting so that they take care of their own trash. It does take work to carry trash in from one's car to one's home, but if you care about your surroundings, you'll do it. Obviously a lot of people don't litter regardless of whether they rent or own, but the litter increases by about a power of ten when people don't take ownership of their surroundings, renters or owners. I could care less what the average income of my neighbors is, but I do like my neighborhood to be free of litter. Which is why, if you see me walking around my neighborhood, you'll probably see my arms full of other people's trash. It would be nice to take a simple walk and not have to look at garbage, dropped socks, etc.