Oklahoma Commercial Air Service Discussion 2012

[Video Expert]

As far as OKC though, I think 2012 will be a pretty good year for passenger traffic, barring any unforseen challenges of course. Nice to see two DL mainliners to anywhere :P.

I think OKC could have so much more traffic if it weren't for some ridiculous fares at times when compared to other nearby airports. I along with co-workers have flown 40+ times since early 2011 and about a third of the time, we've ended up booking out of DAL, DFW, TUL, or ICT because the fares can be drastically cheaper from those locations. I'm talking some significant fare differences here, so I'm not being such a tightwad that I'd drive to Dallas or Tulsa just to save a total of $200 for my company or anything. For example,...from OKC to CHS last month on WN, it was going to cost $2600 round trip for four of us. And that's booking 14 + days in advance. Instead, I booked where we carpooled to Love Field and all got round trip tickets for a total of $1280. So basically, it would have cost my company more than double just for the four of us to fly the 30 minutes from OKC to DAL and then catch the same flight to CHS as opposed to just the fare from DAL to CHS. Of course, we had a couple of stops on the way courtesy of the Wright Amendment, but it was the same connection. Why such higher prices in our market?? It happens all the time.

Another example...OKC to LAS for 4 people ran $1,600 round trip on WN. It was about the same on other carriers, but there are layovers. (Damn, I miss Champion) Now simply drive the two+ hrs to ICT and fly Allegiant, and pay round trip non-stop for around $760. Factor in the gas to and from Wichita and you're still over $800 ahead for that trip alone. Amazing! For all you high rollers out there, please don't laugh. But if you are a small business owner in this economy trying to run a lean ship, this all adds up over time.

I can't be the only small business in OKC that occasionally books corporate travel for multiple employees from other nearby airports in order to save thousands in travel costs over the course of the year. OKC to anywhere is NEVER the lower fare, which isn't the issue. If it's reasonably close, then OKC it is. I understand we're not a hub and have to connect many times for many destinations. It's just that about a third of the time, it seems the fares to some destinations from OKC are extremely out of whack compared to other airports...even others that have to connect in Dallas, Denver, Atlanta, or Chicago.

Why such a difference? Will this ever change???

[venture]

Unfortunately right now it comes down to loads being strong and yields being very high. Airlines are able to make bank here and that keeps them happy. This is why you see WN adding MDW and also trying to add DCA - the first pure WN city to operate from DCA. That says something. The fares on WN you are quoting are a bit high, but the cheap seats sell out quick here. Looking at the fares right now...WN one way on the Wanna Get Away fare (the lowest available) is $213 out of Dallas and $210 out of OKC. So for that there isn't that much of an advantage. Keep in mind that only limited markets have any 14 or 21 day discounts on WN, mostly only get 7 day discount fares.

The other major factor against lower fares is lack of competition. WN helps keeps fares down a bit, but they aren't the low fare leader like they use to be. They really help to keep the Y fares low. AirTran would have been a hope...but they are part of WN now. We really only have a few options...JetBlue, Allegiant, and Virgin America. Frontier which is here is struggling overall, so that is limiting their ability to attack is low right now. JetBlue hasn't show much interest in Fly Over Country. Allegiant has come and gone and won't be back. Virgin America has no interest here as well. So yeah...

[ljbab728]

I can't be the only small business in OKC that occasionally books corporate travel for multiple employees from other nearby airports in order to save thousands in travel costs over the course of the year. OKC to anywhere is NEVER the lower fare, which isn't the issue. If it's reasonably close, then OKC it is. I understand we're not a hub and have to connect many times for many destinations. It's just that about a third of the time, it seems the fares to some destinations from OKC are extremely out of whack compared to other airports...even others that have to connect in Dallas, Denver, Atlanta, or Chicago.

Why such a difference? Will this ever change???

Video, I'm not saying you didn't have that problem but sentiments that fares are always higher from OKC are simply not true. I deal with airline fares every day and have for many years so I follow what's going on closely. I have seen an occasion where a passenger who wanted to originate in Dallas actually flew to OKC first and then back his destination through Dallas because it saved money. Airline fares can fluctuate wildly and sometimes it's just the luck of the draw based on when you book as to which city might be less expensive.

There are a few areas such as the Northeast and Denver in particular where fares have dropped signficantly compared to what they were a few years ago from OKC.

[Bellaboo]

Video, I'm not saying you didn't have that problem but sentiments that fares are always higher from OKC are simply not true. I deal with airline fares every day and have for many years so I follow what's going on closely. I have seen an occasion where a passenger who wanted to originate in Dallas actually flew to OKC first and then back his destination through Dallas because it saved money. Airline fares can fluctuate wildly and sometimes it's just the luck of the draw based on when you book as to which city might be less expensive.

There are a few areas such as the Northeast and Denver in particular where fares have dropped signficantly compared to what they were a few years ago from OKC.

Just bought roundtrip airfare from OKC to Barcelona, Spain for the middle of May. Our kids bought the exact same days (going on cruise with us) roundtrip from Houston to Barcelona. We paid almost 50 bucks less than they did per fare, plus our fight time is shorter both directions. We are flying Delta, they are flying British Airways. I love flying BA, but I was surprised we got the better price.

[Richard at Remax]

Have fun in Barcelona. Fantastic city.

[venture]

I found this article really interesting:

Terminal Sickness
How a thirty-year-old policy of deregulation is slowly killing America’s airline system—and taking down Cincinnati, Memphis, and St. Louis with it.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/mag...ness035756.php

Yeah the whole deregulating of the airline industry is an interesting discussion. When the airlines were guaranteed routes cities saw more service. Now a lot of those cities are falling to the side because of poor planning by the airlines and their love of RJs. Add in record high fuel costs and you really get a double wammy. Passengers wonder what happened to their $200 round trip fares that were fully upgradeable to first class with frequent flyer program perks. Now you are lucky to fly for most places for that amount. Well unless you choose Allegiant or Spirit...but there you are likely to upgrade your package with additional revenue generating features that brings the cost of your trip up closer to others.

[Bellaboo]

Have fun in Barcelona. Fantastic city.

Thanks, we're spending 3 extra days in Barcelona before and after the cruise.

[ljbab728]

Thanks, we're spending 3 extra days in Barcelona before and after the cruise.

Enjoy the Ramblas and all of the unique architecture.

[Oil Capital]

I found this article really interesting:

Terminal Sickness
How a thirty-year-old policy of deregulation is slowly killing America’s airline system—and taking down Cincinnati, Memphis, and St. Louis with it.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/mag...ness035756.php

It would have been a lot more interesting had the writer been less interested in promoting his particular agenda and more interested in actually examining the facts. For example - the headline theme of the article, to-wit: that deregulation is taking down the likes of Cincinnati, Memphis and St. Louis is completely not examined. The writer compares 2011 service at those airports after they were de-hubbed, with their service levels when they were major hubs. How does their current service compare to what they had pre-deregulation? My guess is that their service post-deregulation was vastly greater when they were hubs than anything they had pre-deregulation, and that their service now is probably still not that different from what they had pre-deregulation.

(And the writer apparently needs to learn how to use Travelocity. It is very easy to find 9 non-stop flights per day between Pittsburgh and Washington DC, at all times of day, not just 2 flights both leaving before 6 in the morning.)

All in all, a fundamentally dishonest article.

[Oil Capital]

Further to my previous post criticizing the Washington Monthly article, with a minimal level of curiosity one should be able to expect of a writer in such a publication, he should have been aware of the existence of Southwest Airlines, which does not make its flights available on Travelocity and offers at least 4 flights per day nonstop between Pittsburgh and the Washington DC area. That brings us to 13 nonstop flights a day at all times of the day, not the 2 flights per day, both before 6 AM. Are the other "facts" quoted in the article as reliable as his research into available flights?

[HOT ROD]

I would say those cities benefitted heavily from deregulation, since all of them became major air hubs after deregulation.

It is only recently that those airports lost that status - and that was due to consolidation/mergers and NOT deregulation. ...

[Oil Capital]

I would say those cities benefitted heavily from deregulation, since all of them became major air hubs after deregulation.

It is only recently that those airports lost that status - and that was due to consolidation/mergers and NOT deregulation. ...

Exactly

[venture]

It really depends on the city and/or airport. Memphis was a Delta hub and post derug lost it to Atlanta completely. The biggest impact has been the loss of service to dozens of small and medium sized cities.

[Oil Capital]

It really depends on the city and/or airport. Memphis was a Delta hub and post derug lost it to Atlanta completely. The biggest impact has been the loss of service to dozens of small and medium sized cities.

Two things:

1. You missed the point. Memphis became a Delta hub post-dergegulation. To blame any loss of hub status on deregulation is nonsensical, and their air service now is probably comparable to (or perhaps still better than) what they had pre-deregulation.

2. Memphis has NOT lost their hub to Atlanta completely... Memphis is still a Delta hub, with about 160 flights per day.

[venture]

Two things:

1. You missed the point. Memphis became a Delta hub post-dergegulation. To blame any loss of hub status on deregulation is nonsensical, and their air service now is probably comparable to (or perhaps still better than) what they had pre-deregulation.

2. Memphis has NOT lost their hub to Atlanta completely... Memphis is still a Delta hub, with about 160 flights per day.

You missed a bit of history my friend. Memphis was a Delta hub WAY back before they got it from Northwest. It was a hub by Delta until they consolidated east. Southern then moved in later and formed up a hub there which moved to Republic when Southern and NCA merged. Then Northwest acquired Republic and the rest is history. So it has been back and forth, but did fall earlier and was reborn. However today it is pretty weak and likely won't last long.

Either way it doesn't really matter. There has been good and bad from deregulation. Whats done is done.

[Oil Capital]

You missed a bit of history my friend. Memphis was a Delta hub WAY back before they got it from Northwest. It was a hub by Delta until they consolidated east. Southern then moved in later and formed up a hub there which moved to Republic when Southern and NCA merged. Then Northwest acquired Republic and the rest is history. So it has been back and forth, but did fall earlier and was reborn. However today it is pretty weak and likely won't last long.

Either way it doesn't really matter. There has been good and bad from deregulation. Whats done is done.

I did not miss that history, but you misreported it. The earlier Delta hub was consolidated into their then-DFW hub, not east to Atlanta. And, even more to the point, all of the hubbing occurred POST-deregulation, so it is silly to blame any DE-hubbing on deregulation.

[venture]

To get more back on topic and out of history discussions (which we should probably move it to a new thread OC)...

Yesterday was the closing date for all comments and applications on the DCA slots. Decision is expected in 60 days. If Southwest is awarded the AIR 21 slot, service will begin with in 90 days. Hoping it happens. It'll be great having more people flying to OKC to connect to their final destination (DCA in this case).

[damonsmuz]

I'm curious to "if" WN is approved for this route, what time slot would they be shooting for here. Is this route going to be advertised to the DAL market as service now to DCA...or will it be more so advertised to the OKC market. You don't have much in the form of "connecting" at DCA with WN so what slot makes sense and what is available?

On a side note I see DCA just got approved for SAN service.

[OUman]

^My guess is it will likely be an early morning departure from DAL (keep in mind this flight will originate there), make the usual quick WN stop here at OKC and then go to DCA. The return flight will probably be a late evening departure from DCA, coming to OKC late evening as well and land at DAL late at night. Then again this is only my guess, keeping in mind that DCA is mostly origin-and-destination traffic and business travellers will be likely using the service. It also depends on what slot Southwest gets.

[Just the facts]

^My guess is it will likely be an early morning departure from DAL (keep in mind this flight will originate there), make the usual quick WN stop here at OKC and then go to DCA. The return flight will probably be a late evening departure from DCA, coming to OKC late evening as well and land at DAL late at night. Then again this is only my guess, keeping in mind that DCA is mostly origin-and-destination traffic and business travellers will be likely using the service. It also depends on what slot Southwest gets.

From the Oklahoman

According to Southwest's application, dated March 5, the airline would use a Boeing 737 aircraft with 137 seats for the flight. It would first connect from Dallas to Oklahoma City, depart Oklahoma City at 9:50 a.m. daily and arrive at Washington National at 2:05 p.m. A return flight would depart the nation's capital at 2:50 p.m. and arrive in Oklahoma City at 5:35 p.m. The aircraft would then continue to Dallas.



Read more: http://newsok.com/southwest-airlines...#ixzz1przFAkSW

[damonsmuz]

Depart KOKC at 9:50am and arrive at DCA at 2:05pm? Talk about some serious lack of airspeed there. Unless it's suppose to be 12:05pm. I guess those flight times are alright though I would have liked to have seen a slightly later departure time. Will the flight back from DCA be on the same equipment as the flight there or will there be a change of aircraft?

[Oil Capital]

Depart KOKC at 9:50am and arrive at DCA at 2:05pm? Talk about some serious lack of airspeed there. Unless it's suppose to be 12:05pm. I guess those flight times are alright though I would have liked to have seen a slightly later departure time. Will the flight back from DCA be on the same equipment as the flight there or will there be a change of aircraft?

3 hours 15 minutes doesn't strike me as unusually long for an OKC-DCA flight.

[venture]

The details were all in post 67 of this thread: http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.ph...724#post515724

Directly from the filing...

ROUTE: DCA – OKC, with continuing single-plane service to Dallas Love Field (DAL)
SCHEDULE WESTBOUND 14:50 DCA – 16:50 OKC
17:35 OKC – 18:30 DAL
SCHEDULE EASTBOUND 9:00 DAL – 9:50 OKC
10:15 OKC – 14:04 DCA
START DATE: Within 90 days of the Department’s Final Order​
AIRCRAFT TYPE: Stage III Boeing 737 aircraft (137 seats)

Then here are other details on the traffic flow I posted a few posts later...

DAL will be tagged on the DCA service, if approved. This does allow them to sell it as DAL-DCA as well, however they aren't expecting much more than 10k passengers to come from Dallas. Another 18.5K will be connecting through OKC from cities like DEN, LAS, and PHX. OKC O&D is suppose to be around 40.5K. Total seats available look to be 100,010 and an estimate of 72,404 pax per year. Not bad to start out around a 72% load factor.

They aren't connecting at DCA, they are connecting traffic in OKC. Nearly 20% of the traffic on the flight is expected to be connections into OKC.

[venture]

I'm curious to "if" WN is approved for this route, what time slot would they be shooting for here. Is this route going to be advertised to the DAL market as service now to DCA...or will it be more so advertised to the OKC market. You don't have much in the form of "connecting" at DCA with WN so what slot makes sense and what is available?

On a side note I see DCA just got approved for SAN service.

The route will be marketed as a nonstop for OKC and a direct for Dallas. Nothing too difficult. Only a small percentage of traffic is forecast to be originating in Dallas.

DCA-SAN is a reassignment of an existing slot US Airways had...nothing that needed approval.

Depart KOKC at 9:50am and arrive at DCA at 2:05pm? Talk about some serious lack of airspeed there. Unless it's suppose to be 12:05pm. I guess those flight times are alright though I would have liked to have seen a slightly later departure time. Will the flight back from DCA be on the same equipment as the flight there or will there be a change of aircraft?

It is the same aircraft. DAL-OKC-DCA-OKC-DAL. There is no other aircraft in DCA to do a swap.

[HOT ROD]

Good luck OKC. I hope we get it. It will be nice to see OKC get some connecting traffic, which WILL increase pax numbers and I dont doubt we break the 4M ceiling with just this addition.

However, I must say those flight times are horrible. Why can't the flight depart OKC at 730 and arrive at 12:00 noon. Then, depart DCA at 6pm and arrive OKC at 8pm (originating DAL at 640am, arriving DAL at 850pm). To me, this timing would just about guarantee success - as pax could in theory depart OKC (or DAL) in the morning, arrive for lunch in DC and conduct your 3-5 hour meeting, then hop the flight back and be home before late - all in one day. No need for a hotel - a HUGE benefit/savings for the business traveler. During the 'DC layover: noon-6pm portion', the plane could serve a different route and a new plane be used for the OKC return.

Their current 'proposal' doesn't capitalize on anything and makes it more difficult for the flight to have longevity in my opinion, as you would require an overnight stay (unless you flew United for one leg from IAD or WN from BWI). I wish airlines would develop routings that benefit pax they are trying to serve instead of just positioning planes and forcing people to adapt to very poor scheduling.