The Underground

[Just the facts]

So you really think there would be some big benefit in making people walk 3-4 blocks in the rain? What kind of street traffic is that? They will be hurrying to get to where they are going! Not strolling along adding to whatever you think the benefit would be. Trust me, people only use it regularly in bad weather. It doesn't pull from the 'street traffic' any other times.

So why do you think downtown is void of people on the street despite 25,000 people working in the central business district?

[ljbab728]

Sid, I understand what you're saying but, even though you can't make a blanket statement about everyone, I suspect that many people in Seattle would prefer to walk from point A to point B and stay dry if given a chance. I have no doubt that not having an underground system would put more people on the sidewalks but I think in OKC the difference would be minimal in the central business district. You certainly don't see a lot of shopping or dining options in the underground which would siphon activity from the sidewalks. Obviously having something like that in Deep Deuce or Bricktown would be drastically different.

[Just the facts]

Thanks for the assist Sid. About four months ago I was walking in Philadelphia and it started raining. Unfortunately I wasn't carrying an umbrella so I made my way back to the hotel by stopping in businesses everytime I felt the rain picking up. I probably stopped and milled about in 5 or 6 stores - one of which happen to be an Army/Nave Surplus store I found after cutting though Macy's. I bought several items in there. I probably would have never stopped in there if it hadn't been raining.

[ljbab728]

Kerry, obviously you have a lot more spare time than most downtown workers. LOL

[Just the facts]

Kerry, obviously you have a lot more spare time than most downtown workers. LOL

I don't spend 1 to 2 hours of my day driving to/from work. So that is 10 saved hours right there. Not bad considering that is 25% of a 40 hour work week.

[OSUMom]

So why do you think downtown is void of people on the street despite 25,000 people working in the central business district?

And you think they are all in the tunnels? What about skybridges between buildings? Are they a problem too that we must get rid of so we can force everyone on the sidewalks?

[Just the facts]

And you think they are all in the tunnels? What about skybridges between buildings? Are they a problem too that we must get rid of so we can force everyone on the sidewalks?

I thought I did include the elevated portion in my original comment. The reality is downtown OKC has a limited number of pedestrians and spreading those pedestrian across three levels of elevation doesn't help attract businesses that would otherwise support them if they were concentrated on one level. Imagine if Crossroads closed off the second level and had all the businesses and shoppers just on the first level. It would look pretty busy compared to what they have now.

[ljbab728]

Kerry, I don't pretend to have the answers but the negligeable amount of traffic that avoids the sidewalks by using the underground system it hardly the reason that OKC does not have a lot of shops in the CBD.

[Just the facts]

How many people a week use the Underground? Either a lot of people are using it which justifies the cost of maintenance and comes at the expense of sidewalk traffic, or no one is using it so closing it shouldn't impact anyone. You can't have it both ways.

[BigD Misey]

Although I have fond memories of roaming the corridors in the eighties, it is the fact that I COULD roam into Bank offices and Corporations that I think troubles most building owners. I think most view the underground as a further security risk...another entrance to monitor. Therefore I think more will consider closing it off. Who wants to deal with meanderers that don’t belong there?
Having said that, I thought it was unique. It was cool that you could stay in The Sheridan hotel, or work at Sonic, then go to the small mall on the first floor of what I think was city place or first national, or to the restaurants in the concourse for a bite to eat by using the tunnels and skywalks. Certainly a unique element that many of the larger cities have. I think because the larger cities that OKC is trying to emulate that the tunnels should left there. But, I can see why building owners like Devon will likely want to terminate direct access to their buildings in order to monitor traffic in and out of buildings. If the access terminated just outside the facilities with above ground access, maybe that would be more acceptable.
Two other obstacles: 1) OKC is looking for a more visible vibrancy downtown. Foot traffic supported by retail combined with business. But, Rockefeller in NYC, and downtown Ft Worth have proven that either or both above ground and below ground retail access can be successful. I suppose it needs to take on a life of its own. Maybe a successful underground in OKC will require several shops that will not only have street facing entrances, but alternate access below from the tunnels...kind of like with retail at the canal.
2) Will this hurt OKC's future transit plans (Streetcar, rails...whatever may be)? While I think it could be helpful as OKC grows with activity downtown should several parking garages in downtown be connected with attractions such as conventions, arenas and museums, I think most supporting the rails would go out of their way to end the concourse so that their idea becomes more important.
I think there are positives and negatives with the concourse.
Personally I think it should stay. But I wouldn’t want it to be just a viaduct- Like, just a tunnel from a garage to the Cox center. With careful thought of integration with surface to underground connections I think it could be a VERY UNIQUE attraction in and of itself to visitors AND businesses and to building owners that convert into residential.

[Fantastic]

I think it could be a VERY UNIQUE attraction in and of itself to visitors AND businesses and to building owners that convert into residential.

First of all I am very glad you used the words "very unique." Yeah, sure, some other cities have underground tunnels, but it is more the exception than the rule. And it really is an attraction, some people don't realize this. They think that everything is or should be the way they see it and no other opinion matters. The problem is most if not ALL of those that think like that have very little interaction with people in the downtown area, particularly visitors. Very frequently I get customers who ask what there is to do in the area. I have a very long list of things to tell them, but in many cases they have been here for a few days and they have already seen Bricktown and been on the Water Taxi and seen the Land Run Monument, and now they are bored. In the past we have had some employees that would suggest the Zoo and Penn Square Mall because they simply didn't know what else to say (don't worry Chad, they are gone). I always tried to give them more localized options. One reason is that those people are usually here for a few days on buisness and don't have transportation, they need someplace they can walk to. Alot of these people want to go to the Memorial, but they just need the motovation. A great itenerary for them outside of Bricktown is to go to the Myrian Gardens, then walk along the Underground to the Memorial, check out the Memorial and the Museum. If they choose this, I always encourage them to walk back on street level and take in some of the cool archetecture and public art in the CBD. That can be streched out to a whole day, and I have had those visitors come back either later that day or the next day and thank me because they had no idea how cool OKC was. There have been times where we have had the OKC AtoZ dvd playing, and as luck would have it, the segment on the underground comes on as we are talking about it. The customers pretty much always think it looks really cool. And, as I said, I always encourage them to walk back on the street level, so, in this case, these visitors experiance street level OKC much more than they would otherwise, BECAUSE of the Underground. Without the Underground, they might just hop on the Trolley to get to the Memorial.

The point is, treating the Underground as an attraction can acctually benifet the city and the visitors. It can be so much more than just an underground walkway, it just needs to be marketed better. I also think there should be MORE historc photos, really make it like a free museum of progress and archetecture.

[Urbanized]

My eighth grade English teacher would point out that there are no degrees of uniqueness; something is either one-of-a-kind or it is not. Sorry to digress. Carry on.

[Snowman]

So why do you think downtown is void of people on the street despite 25,000 people working in the central business district?

Since most of those are just their to work they will go strait to/from their car before, after work and lunch are the only times they may be seen. However that number is higher than what you will see due to several of the largest buildings have a parking garage attached to the office building and most have an option to park less than a block away.

Outside of more high dense residential units in the CBD, shops and restaurants there seem likely to be limited primarily to those that can make it catering to lunchtime crowds, of which only a percentage will to draw people in from outside the CBD in the evening.

[Fantastic]

My eighth grade English teacher would point out that there are no degrees of uniqueness; something is either one-of-a-kind or it is not. Sorry to digress. Carry on.

The uniqueness I was talking about wasn't the Underground itself, but what could be done with it. I was kind of piggy backing on what BigD Misey was saying about it becoming an attraction... I really wasn't clear about that... my apologies

[Fantastic]

Since most of those are just their to work they will go strait to/from their car before, after work and lunch are the only times they may be seen. However that number is higher than what you will see due to several of the largest buildings have a parking garage attached to the office building and most have an option to park less than a block away.

Outside of more high dense residential units in the CBD, shops and restaurants there seem likely to be limited primarily to those that can make it catering to lunchtime crowds, of which only a percentage will to draw people in from outside the CBD in the evening.

Very good points

[ljbab728]

How many people a week use the Underground? Either a lot of people are using it which justifies the cost of maintenance and comes at the expense of sidewalk traffic, or no one is using it so closing it shouldn't impact anyone. You can't have it both ways.

I have no idea of the exact numbers but that's hardly having it both ways. I'm sure the usage is much higher on days with inclimate weather. Do you have figures on how many people need to use it to justify maintenance costs? I didn't think so. The underground is not the reason for any lack of retail along the sidewalks of the central business district. Where is all of the retail in the Underground system which has all of that foot traffic? They could shut it down completely tomorrow and not one person would say, WOW, I need to open up a new shop now.

[Just the facts]

In 2005 about $1.9 million was spent to re-open it. According to the attached document the City alone expected to contribute $74,000 per year for maintenance as just one of the property owners along the route. I can't find any usage numbers.

http://www.okc.gov/council/council_l...1/VIII%20C.pdf

[BoulderSooner]

So why do you think downtown is void of people on the street despite 25,000 people working in the central business district?

drive around downtown from 11-2 .. there are lots and lots of people on the street

[Urbanized]

The uniqueness I was talking about wasn't the Underground itself, but what could be done with it. I was kind of piggy backing on what BigD Misey was saying about it becoming an attraction... I really wasn't clear about that... my apologies

I'm just yanking your chain, Batman.

[Urbanized]

In 2005 about $1.9 million was spent to re-open it. According to the attached document the City alone expected to contribute $74,000 per year for maintenance as just one of the property owners along the route. I can't find any usage numbers.

http://www.okc.gov/council/council_l...1/VIII%20C.pdf

Not to re-open, that was a remodel. The tunnels have never been out of use, other when section under a vacant building has been closed off from the rest of the network.

[Just the facts]

Not to re-open, that was a remodel. The tunnels have never been out of use, other when section under a vacant building has been closed off from the rest of the network.

I seem to recall that it was actually closed (meaning a person couldn't walk the entire length). But yes, parts have always been open as they not only connect buildings, but go through them as well. Does anyone know how many business open directlly to the conncourse path?

[BigD Misey]

I dont know if its still accurate, but...heres one.(?)

http://okc.about.com/library/UGMAP.pdf


http://okc.about.com/od/oklahomacity...conncourse.htm

[Snowman]

Here is a more recent rendering though it is the same structures, the visual difference is some of the access points were not highlighted on the other. http://www.downtownokc.com/Portals/1...ice_map_05.pdf

The connection with Devon tower and whatever Sandridge is doing with their part is only the new major changes in several years.

[Urbanized]

I seem to recall that it was actually closed (meaning a person couldn't walk the entire length). But yes, parts have always been open as they not only connect buildings, but go through them as well. Does anyone know how many business open directlly to the conncourse path?

No, portions may have been temporarily closed for construction during the remodel, but the current walkable portions are virtually unchanged over the past 20 plus years that I have been downtown, save the following:

1. Portion connecting to Murrah Building closed after bombing
2. Portion connecting to Skirvin (about 50-75 feet) re-opened when Skirvin reopened
3. Several buildings closed (including some now in Sandridge campus), causing stubs to those buildings to be sealed

Not sure on number of businesses connecting. It certainly in the dozens, especially if you count those "in the path" like Teena Hicks and First National Arcade, which - while they are technically in the buildings - are designed to interact with Conncourse traffic and rely heavily on it for their customers.

[Just the facts]

No, portions may have been temporarily closed for construction during the remodel, but the current walkable portions are virtually unchanged over the past 20 plus years that I have been downtown, save the following:

1. Portion connecting to Murrah Building closed after bombing
2. Portion connecting to Skirvin (about 50-75 feet) re-opened when Skirvin reopened
3. Several buildings closed (including some now in Sandridge campus), causing stubs to those buildings to be sealed

Not sure on number of businesses connecting. It certainly in the dozens, especially if you count those "in the path" like Teena Hicks and First National Arcade, which - while they are technically in the buildings - are designed to interact with Conncourse traffic and rely heavily on it for their customers.

Thanks - I was thinking about the Skirvin connection. So it seems safe to say that more retail in the downtown core opens to the Conncourse than it does to the sidewalk.