Haunted by John Steinbeck and the Joads

[Edmond_Outsider]

Oklahoma City had one of the largest and longest lasting Hoovervilles. It was in and around the stockyards, the old city dump, and the south bank of the Canadian river. It lasted until the 1950s. The old downtown airpark was built on part of the shanty town and Dell is built on the west end.

Lange and others who documented the plight of the migrant workers came to OKC to photograph what was considered one of the biggest and worst Shantytowns. Lange took this photo, named "Damaged Childe," in the OKC Hooverville. It is less known than "Migrant Mother" but many consider it a superior photo.

This camp was exactly how Steinbeck described those the Joads passed through in California.

[Jim Kyle]

Parts of it, known as Community Camp, existed on the north bank of the river as well, between May and Western, into the last half of the 1950s. I interviewed several of the inhabitants during the last weeks of its existence. The feature articles may still be available in the Oklahoman's on-line archives; I've not looked for them (or even remembered them until this thread awakened old memories).

[MsProudSooner]

MsProudSooner, I certainly respect your dad's perspective, and yours. But about the farmers who lost their land and couldn't grow anything on it whether they stayed or didn't, they were down to the most basic and rock-bottom of needs of having mouths to feed and it is not to their discredit, but is instead to their credit, that they attempted to find a way to do that beyond our state's border. Non-agrarian people were not so completely failed as were the farmers, and most of them probably stayed.

But, as to the perceptions of others outside our state, well, they have and will perceive what they want to, whether those perceptions are spot on or not. We have no control over that, whether based in ignorance or not as they often are ... even though that national perception has been changing.

I don't disagree with what you are saying. My family wasn't agrarian. My dad was in college at Southwestern when the book came out. He became a speech and English teacher. I think one of the things that bothered him the most was that outsiders seemed to assume everyhone in Oklahoma was uneducated.

The book was published in 1939. The movie came out in 1940. I wonder if the movie didn't have a bigger influence on people's attitudes than the book. After December 7, 1941, tens of thousands of Oklahoma men joined the military and, perhaps for the first time, met lots of people from other areas of the country saw what their perceptions were of Oklahoma and 'Okies'.

I remember reading that one of the main reasons Dr. Cross was enthusiastic about building a successful football program was that he wanted the citizens of the state to have something to be proud of. Here is a quote about Dr. Cross from Barry Switzer.

“He told me in 1944, when he became president of the University of Oklahoma, Oklahomans had a mass inferiority complex. He wanted to do something to combat this depression. And best way we can do it — to bring pride in ourselves and in our state — is to have a winning football program.”

The irony is how things have changed since 1939. During the Centennial Celebration, I saw a video clip of a speech by Ken Burns. He stated that he thought he had filmed documentaries in every state in the union. He said that all people are proud of their state to some degree, but there were 2 states where people had more state pride than any others. Those two states were Texas and Oklahoma.

I think people probably were too touchy about the book and people's perception of Oklahoma. I think that attitude still existed to a certain extent well into the 1990's - otherwise, Connie Chung wouldn't have practically been ridden out of town on a rail due to her tactless and foolish comments after the Oklahoma City Bombing.

I think most people would agree with your last paragraph. I think the negative attiudes toward the book was strongest in the generation that lived through the Dust Bowl era. I think most younger Oklahoman's don't have a strong attitude about the book one way or another and don't care what other people think about our state.

[SoonerBeerMan]

I don't disagree with what you are saying. My family wasn't agrarian. My dad was in college at Southwestern when the book came out. He became a speech and English teacher. I think one of the things that bothered him the most was that outsiders seemed to assume everyhone in Oklahoma was uneducated.

The book was published in 1939. The movie came out in 1940. I wonder if the movie didn't have a bigger influence on people's attitudes than the book. After December 7, 1941, tens of thousands of Oklahoma men joined the military and, perhaps for the first time, met lots of people from other areas of the country saw what their perceptions were of Oklahoma and 'Okies'.

I remember reading that one of the main reasons Dr. Cross was enthusiastic about building a successful football program was that he wanted the citizens of the state to have something to be proud of. Here is a quote about Dr. Cross from Barry Switzer.

“He told me in 1944, when he became president of the University of Oklahoma, Oklahomans had a mass inferiority complex. He wanted to do something to combat this depression. And best way we can do it — to bring pride in ourselves and in our state — is to have a winning football program.”

The irony is how things have changed since 1939. During the Centennial Celebration, I saw a video clip of a speech by Ken Burns. He stated that he thought he had filmed documentaries in every state in the union. He said that all people are proud of their state to some degree, but there were 2 states where people had more state pride than any others. Those two states were Texas and Oklahoma.

I think people probably were too touchy about the book and people's perception of Oklahoma. I think that attitude still existed to a certain extent well into the 1990's - otherwise, Connie Chung wouldn't have practically been ridden out of town on a rail due to her tactless and foolish comments after the Oklahoma City Bombing.

I think most people would agree with your last paragraph. I think the negative attiudes toward the book was strongest in the generation that lived through the Dust Bowl era. I think most younger Oklahoman's don't have a strong attitude about the book one way or another and don't care what other people think about our state.

Just curious, what were her comments?

[adaniel]

Just curious, what were her comments?

I don't know the exact words, but she asked one of the OKCFD spokespersons if OKC could even handle all of what was going on, and did so in a very condescending matter.

I believe shortly after that she was "reassigned" to some morning show.

I was very young at the time and living in TX but I remember my uncles were active in the rescue effort. Both of them confirmed that that some members of the media were downright ruthless at times, with one "Current Affair" reporter signing up as a volunteer just to get a better camera angle.

[Questor]

Oklahoma City had one of the largest and longest lasting Hoovervilles. It was in and around the stockyards, the old city dump, and the south bank of the Canadian river. It lasted until the 1950s. The old downtown airpark was built on part of the shanty town and Dell is built on the west end.

That's really interesting. When I was little I can remember my Grandpa always referring to that area as shanty town, or on one occasion "hell's half acre" (haha!) and I remember him telling me that the area used to be a poor camp-out of some kind, but he never really explained more than that. I've always wondered about the comment... now I guess I know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooverville

[Double Edge]

Russell Lee's photos of The Mays Ave. Camp

http://www.loc.gov/pictures/search/?...enue+camp&sp=1

[Double Edge]

There's a good bit of history about that area at this site, on Sand Town, Mulligan Flats, and I believe where the Mays Ave camp came to be as well, though it's not that east to navigate around the site. "Next" and "Back" from this link seem to work the best.

http://www.sandtownhistory.com/history1.html

a few other details http://digital.library.okstate.edu/e...s/M/MI012.html

[Jim Kyle]

It's not possible to correlate the map on the first page of that link with the river's course today, because a major flood in the 1920s changed the channel completely between the Lake Overholser dam and approximately Downtown Air Park. The map shows the river meandering north of Reno in the Sand Town area, but the new channel never goes north of Reno until the bridge east of Eastern.

The original channel turned to the east just a bit south of Reno and west of Council, came back to the north through the area of Reno and Rockwell, and wandered through what is now the Fair Grounds area before moving back to the south again. The new channel continues to the east without the meander to the north

However I do believe that the camp under the bridge at May Avenue wasn't far from the original Sand Town location.

Mulligan Flats is north of Reno, west of Penn, and east of Villa. In the late 50s there was a similar area on the north bank of the river just east of Byers, also.

[Double Edge]

If you move on through the pages of that site, it talks about the floods and the Corp of Engineers shunting the river to cut off a loop of it. There are several maps showing the changes too but they are not that easy to follow. I don't know how accurate it all is but it's an interesting read.

[Questor]

Great links, thanks.

[soonerguru]

Great thread! It's content like this that makes okctalk one of the best forums on the Internet! I salute Pete, and his predecessor Patrick, for providing us this excellent forum for honest, probing and relevant discussion.