Stage Center

[Jim Kyle]

Consider the massive differences in age between any city in Europe and those in the USA. Go back 400 years; the European cities that are major centers today had long-established histories in 1612. The area now encompassed by the USA had few major centers, and none of them were of European origin. It took almost another century for European immigrants to build places such as Boston, New York, and Charleston -- and little of what they built in that century survives today.

Our city is just over 120 years old. The only surviving relic of its first week of existence is the mis-alignment of north-south streets in the original downtown area, and even that is being erased, bit by bit. We're still in the building phase of our existence, more concerned with creating a history than in preserving what's already here.

That said, I miss the downtown I knew -- the Criterion, Katz Drug, the Baum building, even the old interurban terminal. I decry the wholesale clearing by Urban Renewal as a tragedy. However we do seem to be learning a bit from some of our mistakes in the past. Examples that spring to mind include Bricktown, Automobile Alley, Plaza Court, and Film Row; as our culture matures I expect we will do better but even in the ancient cities of Europe, not everything is preserved indefinitely.

Area cultures are, in many ways, like the individuals that comprise them: we all grow too soon old and too late smart!

[kevinpate]

Just checked my lotto number.
Sorry Stage Center.

[Double Edge]

Every time I go abroad and return home I am reminded that we are a tent city on the prairie. What was put up yesterday will be taken down tomorrow. Perhaps it is too deep in our culture now to expect change anytime soon.

[Spartan]

Every time I go abroad and return home I am reminded that we are a tent city on the prairie. What was put up yesterday will be taken down tomorrow. Perhaps it is too deep in our culture now to expect change anytime soon.

Truth, unfortunately. That's a change that tragically may never come.

[Rover]

And every time I travel around the world, I return grateful to have such a good life as is afforded here. Sorry, but I don't come back to look down on us ignorant Okies. I try to keep the Euro arrogance back there.

[Just the facts]

Development follows transportation systems. Prior to the end of WWII every town, city, and hamlet in America was layed out and looked just like every town, city and hamlet in Europe. The difference is after WWII European government didn't come up with things like GI loans for suburban houses. America turned to the automobile and Europe didn't and development patterns diverged.

[Bellaboo]

Every time I go abroad and return home I am reminded that we are a tent city on the prairie. What was put up yesterday will be taken down tomorrow. Perhaps it is too deep in our culture now to expect change anytime soon.

Every time I've come back from Europe, Asia, Africa and Eastern Europe I've practically got down on my hands and knees and kissed the dirt.

[Double Edge]

Yes, kiss the ground, just not Stage Center and our other architecture, (speaking in general, not necessarily you and Rover in particular) as evidenced by the lack of concern to keep it around very long. (What I was talking about. But feel free to be all offended that someone implied WE are ignorant when they did not. I'm okie born and a long term resident. Probably more years than the two of you combined.)

The built environment of our country is very young by comparison and OKC more so. We build things as inexpensively as possible and don't think much about tearing them down. Lots of fast steel and EIFS if you look around. (Tents) They probably built as inexpensively as possible in Europe too, in the days before we were even a country, but to different standards and with different materials than we have here today, have ever had here, and will ever have here. What we do build to exceptional standards, including design, we treat much the same way as that which isn't.

We are more of the consumerist mentality. Buy it, use it, toss it and that too plays a role in not saving and finding new use for older buildings.

[Just the facts]

I read the other day that 80% of everything in American has been built in the last 50 years. Some of our primary economic indicators are housing starts and new car sales. The whole economy is based and measured on building new stuff. But heaven forbid something negative is said about widening the Kilpatrick Turnpike, widening I-40, or spreading suburbia all over the prairie. I am really happy to see so many people starting to come to the realization that we can't afford to keep building and developing the way we have since 1945. That realization led me to the New Urbanism and it is what tells me that even if we could save Stage Center – we shouldn’t. The land is too valuable to be wasted on low density development.

[ljbab728]

Which makes me think about all of those idiots in New York City. What are they thinking letting some of the most valuable real estate in the world be taken up by that Central Park thingy? Maybe we should consider taking out a runway at Will Rogers and putting up a few high rise condos. That would be much more dense instead of just being a waste of valuable land.

[Spartan]

And every time I travel around the world, I return grateful to have such a good life as is afforded here. Sorry, but I don't come back to look down on us ignorant Okies. I try to keep the Euro arrogance back there.

Platitudes don't benefit anything...

[Spartan]

We build things as inexpensively as possible and don't think much about tearing them down. Lots of fast steel and EIFS if you look around. (Tents)

What we do build to exceptional standards, including design, we treat much the same way as that which isn't.

This statement is too true for others to get away with equating it to looking down on Oklahomans, which it simply isn't.

[David Pollard]

Goodness. Sorry I brought up the fact that I live somewhere else than OKC!

My only point was that there is lots of potential for Stage Center, and tired to point out some alternatives. No value judgment intended. Besides, for those of you who have ever lived abroad you should know that you can take the man out of Oklahoma, but you can never take the Oklahoman out of the man.

[UnFrSaKn]

It's funny that David mentions Amsterdam. That's actually the only other city I've had the fortune to visit outside of the United States. It was actually when I began having an interest in photography. I mean literally, all I had was a cheap disposable. Shortly after that I got a "real" camera, which was a point-and-shoot film camera. The photos are simply terrible looking to me now, but it's the only photos in the family from outside the U.S. This was ten years ago this year.

[Rover]

Platitudes don't benefit anything...

Sorry. Neither does constant demeaning opposing views or generalized statements about how backwards OKC will be compared to the rest of the world. OKC is an infant compared to much of the world and it's cities. That would be like saying children are stupid - they aren't. But they don't make the same decisions as adults because of a lack of experience and frame of reference.

[Just the facts]

Which makes me think about all of those idiots in New York City. What are they thinking letting some of the most valuable real estate in the world be taken up by that Central Park thingy? Maybe we should consider taking out a runway at Will Rogers and putting up a few high rise condos. That would be much more dense instead of just being a waste of valuable land.

Why do you make comments like this when you already know the real answer? Central Park is what allows the rest of Manhatten to be so dense. Stage Center is NOT Central Park - MBG and Central Park will fill that role in OKC.

[Rover]

Anybody that compares the dynamics of NYC and Manhatten to core OKC either hasn't been to NYC or doesn't understand urban development, history, or economics, or all three.

[Double Edge]

I read the other day that 80% of everything in American has been built in the last 50 years. Some of our primary economic indicators are housing starts and new car sales. The whole economy is based and measured on building new stuff. But heaven forbid something negative is said about widening the Kilpatrick Turnpike, widening I-40, or spreading suburbia all over the prairie. I am really happy to see so many people starting to come to the realization that we can't afford to keep building and developing the way we have since 1945. That realization led me to the New Urbanism and it is what tells me that even if we could save Stage Center – we shouldn’t. The land is too valuable to be wasted on low density development.

You are preaching to the choir, brotherman: http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.ph...412#post381412 but I'm glad you have seen the light.

[kevinpate]

Goodbye Stage Center. I've thought about you, a lot, over the past 24 hours. If you were merely an empty yet functional structure, I would stand for you still, time and again, against any who would crave the land you stand upon. Sadly, that is not the case. Whatever you have been, however unique you have stood for all these years, we've left you to rot. We've ignored you until you are beyond being repaired for any feasible sum. I still harbor a hope that someone with more funds than sense will do something for you. But in total truth, if I could influence such a person or persons, I'd feel bound to ask them why. Why save this structure with those funds when so many other things could be done, things that others are not presently doing.

I will miss you Stage Center. We had some good times. And it's doubtful anything like you will ever be erected in the metro again. If it should come to pass though, I hope we won't collectively screw it up as we did here.

With that said, I am out.

[Spartan]

Is there a reason for your sorrowful sonnet?

[Steve]

There is a final play underway to save Stage Center. And it has surprisingly decent odds of success (30 to 50 percent).

[Just the facts]

There is a final play underway to save Stage Center. And it has surprisingly decent odds of success (30 to 50 percent).

Did I miss something? What happened to the RFP process?

[Steve]

The RFP process is still out there. And I'm basically implying that there's a bid underway that may have some legs to it.

[ljbab728]

Why do you make comments like this when you already know the real answer? Central Park is what allows the rest of Manhatten to be so dense. Stage Center is NOT Central Park - MBG and Central Park will fill that role in OKC.

You know exactly what I was talking about, Kerry. I have no need to explain.

[BoulderSooner]

Agree, it's the same thing again. You know in an odd way Core to Shore is an embodiment of this idea too... Rather than continuing with our current downtown they are basically abandoning it to build something new from scratch to the south. That's basically a 21st Century equivalent to the IM Pei plan and no one notices....

that is not close to the truth