Oklahoma Commercial Air Service Discussion 2012

[venture]

Grew up in Lawton so I keep up with the news that goes on down there and they are finally getting rid of the turboprops. http://www.kswo.com/story/16439925/a...o-get-new-jets

I want to say they went to RJs once already and then put the AT7s in Dallas to help with costs. Honestly, the AT7s are better for that route than the ERJs. The 60% loads are horrible, but I doubt they have much traffic outside military fliers to really worry about pricing themselves out of the market. Costs will be going up a lot for the route and passengers will need to expect fares to go up. Now on the other side the AT7s that American Eagle uses are the older models and not newer generation, so they won't be as quiet and such as the new -600s. The thinking that RJs are what will save a community and increase service is long dead. We've seen many routes that had 7 to 12 daily flights get axed completely because of the skyrocketing price of fuel and the high costs of operating a 50-seat RJ.

[Celebrator]

How come no MD-80s from OKC to ORD, but one on TUL-ORD? And does TUL-DEN on UA get larger equipment than OKC-DEN because Frontier pulled out of TUL? And UA has one 735 on TUL-IAH! Anyway, I am just surprised by more mainline at TUL than at OKC and just am wondering why.

[ljbab728]

How come no MD-80s from OKC to ORD, but one on TUL-ORD? And does TUL-DEN on UA get larger equipment than OKC-DEN because Frontier pulled out of TUL? And UA has one 735 on TUL-IAH! Anyway, I am just surprised by more mainline at TUL than at OKC and just am wondering why.

I'm not sure what you're looking at for TUL to ORD but there aren't any MD80s from there to O'Hare. The only MD80 service requires a connection. On the nonstops on American and United there are only 737's and the Embraers. From OKC to DEN you get either an Airbus, 737, or Embraer. Tulsa has an Airbus, 737s, Embraers or Canadair Regional Jets. As mentioned many times previously, Tulsa gets some aircraft service to route planes to the maintenance center there. It's not based on amount of traffic or any other reason.

[OUman]

Now on the other side the AT7s that American Eagle uses are the older models and not newer generation, so they won't be as quiet and such as the new -600s.

Actually the Eagle ATR 72-500s are definitely much better with noise levels in the cabin then the Q400s, as I mentioned last year my experience with the Q400 wasn't that great, and I'm not one for complaining about aircraft cabin noise. The -500s sound much more like a jet in-flight, in the "Q"400s, the whole cabin vibrates and one hears a loud drone at cruise altitude, ascent, and descent. It never stops (unless you're on short final or taxiing), that's what was the most annoying part about my experience. Now Colgan initially transferred its older model Q400s from its EWR hub to IAH, so I haven't had a chance to fly in the Q400 NextGen, which supposedly has a better noise and vibration supression system, but I'll take an ATR anyday over a Q400. Sorry for the deviation, just thought I would post that bit.

[venture]

How come no MD-80s from OKC to ORD, but one on TUL-ORD? And does TUL-DEN on UA get larger equipment than OKC-DEN because Frontier pulled out of TUL? And UA has one 735 on TUL-IAH! Anyway, I am just surprised by more mainline at TUL than at OKC and just am wondering why.

Much like what LJ said, for AA it is a manner of aircraft rotation into TUL for maintenance. Not saying every aircraft going in there is going to be pulled off the line, but it allows them to work an aircraft in when needed without having to adjust the schedule a lot. I would imagine it is more or less a wash on the DEN route. I noticed I forgot to put in the OKC-DEN info from WN (Southwest). Pulling it back up, both OKC and TUL have 3 WN flights to DEN during the week - I think I only put two for TUL originally. So yeah, I would say F9 (Frontier) not in the TUL market to DEN helps UA a bit.

I'm not sure what you're looking at for TUL to ORD but there aren't any MD80s from there to O'Hare. The only MD80 service requires a connection. On the nonstops on American and United there are only 737's and the Embraers. From OKC to DEN you get either an Airbus, 737, or Embraer. Tulsa has an Airbus, 737s, Embraers or Canadair Regional Jets. As mentioned many times previously, Tulsa gets some aircraft service to route planes to the maintenance center there. It's not based on amount of traffic or any other reason.

LJ, they were referring to the list in my first post that summed up what the scheduled ended at last year. When I pulled it the mainline on AA from TUL to ORD was an M80 but is now a 738.

Actually the Eagle ATR 72-500s are definitely much better with noise levels in the cabin then the Q400s, as I mentioned last year my experience with the Q400 wasn't that great, and I'm not one for complaining about aircraft cabin noise. The -500s sound much more like a jet in-flight, in the "Q"400s, the whole cabin vibrates and one hears a loud drone at cruise altitude, ascent, and descent. It never stops (unless you're on short final or taxiing), that's what was the most annoying part about my experience. Now Colgan initially transferred its older model Q400s from its EWR hub to IAH, so I haven't had a chance to fly in the Q400 NextGen, which supposedly has a better noise and vibration supression system, but I'll take an ATR anyday over a Q400. Sorry for the deviation, just thought I would post that bit.

Ahhh okay. Wish they would keep them around for markets that could use the extra lift.

[venture]

Some random news bits...

- Southwest committed to retaining service in Wichita. It will transition to the Southwest brand next year. This was secured with a $7 Million annual subsidy. AirTran was previously getting a $3-5 million annual subsidy for service to Atlanta since it started. The service has never been self sustaining.

- AMR/American Airlines rejected leases on 11 operational 757s and a handful of MD-80s. An A300 was also rejected, but that fleet has been grounded since 2009 and it was already parked in the desert.

- 2011 numbers for OKC were posted in the old thread already - just under 3% growth for the year.

[venture]

More detail figures from BTS through Q3 of 2011...

Airport wide load factors were around 78%, which is comparable to 2010.

• American - 83.37%
• American Eagle* - 74.06%
• Continental (part of United) - 55.81%
• Delta - 78.68%
• Frontier - 76.75%
• SkyWest (operating for United & Delta) - 76.25%
• Southwest - 79.35%
• United - 76.40%

* American Eagle is considered a Major airline in its own right and is reported separate of American Airlines.

Overall these are pretty good. Total Revenue Passenger Miles (RPMs) for the airport for Q1 to Q3 was 729,829 out of 931,911 Available Seat Miles (ASMs). Which you could translate to roughly 358,939 seats when unfilled for the first 9 months of 2011 or about 1330 seats a day. To put in perspective, that would be about 10 737s running empty. Still not horrible, but plenty of room for growth in the existing amount of capacity we are being fed. If the LF numbers were running in the 80s we would see more flights or a higher gauge of aircraft added.

[damonsmuz]

Can anyone explain this flight? I haven't seen a revenue flight take off from Will Rogers before 5am ever. 4:50am departure from OKC-DTW? The flight # shows that it would be operating as a revenue flight since repositioning and charter flights typically start with a much higher number.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/FLG4417

[OUman]

^If you notice the flight history for this flight number on that same page, this is most likely not a revenue flight, it might be a re-positoning flight (which do sometimes use flight numbers in the "normal" range) or something else, like a training flight. At the moment DL Conxn only flies CRJ 700s or 900s between OKC and DTW for regular service.

There has also been another flight like this one that has run many times from Oklahoma City to, of all places, Elmira/Corning Regional Airport in New York with an ERJ 145 (Expressjet, if I recall correctly).

[venture]

I would imagine it was probably in the shop at AAR. I've seen CRJs parked over there several times, including those that operate for Delta. Not sure if Pinnacle has a deal with them, but wouldn't doubt it.

[bluedogok]

Maybe a mail flight? I know the old 5:50 AM TWA flight from OKC to STL was a "mail flight" as they called it because they had a contract with USPS to carry mail on that flight, evidently passengers were just gravy for them.

[OUman]

Not likely. Mail flights used to be daily services. That concept is pretty much gone these days, except in remote regions like Alaska and Russia where scheduled cargo carriers have a contract with a regional carrier or two. Some examples are Everts Air Cargo which has a hub at ANC (Anchorage Int'l) and still flies DC 6s and C46 Commandos, and Trans Northern which, last I've read, has charter agreements with both, UPS and Fedex.

Btw, I do remember that 5:50a.m. TWA departure to STL. It was the very first departure from OKC for a while, started with a 727, then was operated with an MD 80 and finally with a 717-200 before TWA went out of business. I really do miss both, the red stripe and the new globe logo liveries of TWA. Nothing quite like them these days. I also remember flying out to DFW and then LGA back in the day in a TWA 727-200.

[Richard at Remax]

Flew back from SFO last night. Besides the inconsiderate people in front of me it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. Was only about 2:45 instead of the 3 hours, 8 min it posted.

[ljbab728]

Flew back from SFO last night. Besides the inconsiderate people in front of me it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. Was only about 2:45 instead of the 3 hours, 8 min it posted.

Why did you think it would be bad?

[chrisok]

Flew back from SFO last night. Besides the inconsiderate people in front of me it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. Was only about 2:45 instead of the 3 hours, 8 min it posted.

You get a pretty good tailwind this time of year heading that way. That flight is probably a good 30-45 min longer heading the other way. What's crazy is the EWR-OKC flight can be nearly 4 hours with the strong headwind this time of year. That's a LONG time on an ERJ-145.

[Richard at Remax]

Why did you think it would be bad?

3+ hours in a pringles can with wings isn't really my cup of tea

And I flew on that newark-okc flight a few years ago, I thought for sure time had stopped since it seemed to take forever.

[NoOkie]

You get a pretty good tailwind this time of year heading that way. That flight is probably a good 30-45 min longer heading the other way. What's crazy is the EWR-OKC flight can be nearly 4 hours with the strong headwind this time of year. That's a LONG time on an ERJ-145.

The Embraer jets have done more to stop me from flying than anything else, TSA included. I just hate them so much.

[venture]

The Embraer jets have done more to stop me from flying than anything else, TSA included. I just hate them so much.

The ERJ doesn't bother me too much, when the flight is about an hour or less. When it is on cross country flights it gets to be too much. Unfortunately more people aren't flying to justify larger aircraft to EWR.

Side note...looks like in April, United will go down to only 1 flight to LAX.

[adaniel]

I flew on the Continental flight from OKC to DCA (Washington Dulles) about a year and a half ago. Pringles can with wings is about right. Probably the most uncomfortable 3 hours of my life. Somehow, me (6'0, 220 lbs) got crammed up next to another guy about my size in those seats. I'm planning on doing the trip again in September and I will connect in O'Hare or Memphis just so I don't have to get on another one of those planes for that long.

[NoOkie]

The ERJ doesn't bother me too much, when the flight is about an hour or less. When it is on cross country flights it gets to be too much. Unfortunately more people aren't flying to justify larger aircraft to EWR.

Side note...looks like in April, United will go down to only 1 flight to LAX.

I'm 6'7", most of the airlines have the seats packed in so tightly that the seat pitch is insufficient for my feet to actually touch the floor. I can tolerate them, but it's pretty miserable. The worst was OKC to MSN, it was a 2.5 hr flight and was pretty bad.

[bluedogok]

I'm 6'7", most of the airlines have the seats packed in so tightly that the seat pitch is insufficient for my feet to actually touch the floor. I can tolerate them, but it's pretty miserable. The worst was OKC to MSN, it was a 2.5 hr flight and was pretty bad.

I usually get the stretch seats on Frontier (Airbus A319) for the Denver to Austin/OKC flights, the extra 5" is nicer than most. My wife even noticed the difference on one of her flights up here and she is 5'-2" tall.

[ljbab728]

The worst was OKC to MSN, it was a 2.5 hr flight and was pretty bad.

MSN is Madison, Wisconsin. By any chance did you mean MSP, which is Minneapolis?

[damonsmuz]

Have there been any cities lately that have applied for EAS service in OK? With Great Lake hitting up Liberal and Garden City...what would the odds of adding Woodward on the route map. Perhaps a route of WWR-LBL-DEN ? I don't know the logistics to how a town gets EAS service, it just seems that NW Oklahoma is in one of those areas where a drive to AMA or OKC is far enough that EAS service could be warranted.

[NoOkie]

MSN is Madison, Wisconsin. By any chance did you mean MSP, which is Minneapolis?

No, I mean Madison. Though now that I think about it, it was actually DFW to MSN. I had a larger plane, an MD-88 I think to DFW, then had an E-170 to MSN. The MD-88 was just salt on the wounds!

I usually get the stretch seats on Frontier (Airbus A319) for the Denver to Austin/OKC flights, the extra 5" is nicer than most. My wife even noticed the difference on one of her flights up here and she is 5'-2" tall.

I do too, when they're available. It just seems that everywhere I end up going is serviced by the ERJs with no stretch option. I really just hate those planes. :P

[damonsmuz]

I've enjoyed the EMB 170 series. Then again Im only 5'10 but thought that the plane was far roomier than all other "regional" planes.

I guess it could have been worse...it could have been a CRJ-100/200 for you.... ouch.