Two bits of information about Best Buy and Crossroads Mall.

[jn1780]

Honestly, I would love to see the place comeback however, I am looking at the situation with a realstic attitude. The mall is old and likely cost more to operate then a store that can be built from the ground up. You also have to look at the fact the customer base is gone. Even if you could revamp the place and bring quality tenants back it will never do the traffic count it used to bring. You have to factor in that people have switched back to driving just a few miles from home. People are no longer drive all over the place to do their shopping. Gasoline cost too much to blow through it like it's candy. In Crossroads prime, $20 is the most people paid for a tank of gas. Now people are averaging $50-$75 a tank. Not to mention malls had the bulk of the stores. Today you can shop most of your favorite store in less then 10 minutes from your house.

If it was a gas issue you would think the reverse would be true. People would like to drive to one centralized location for all their goods instead of driving to all these different stores. Maybe in 30 years when gas is ridiculously expensive and malls are integrated into a mass transit system they will make a comeback.

[SoonerDave]

Honestly, I would love to see the place comeback however, I am looking at the situation with a realstic attitude. The mall is old and likely cost more to operate then a store that can be built from the ground up. You also have to look at the fact the customer base is gone. Even if you could revamp the place and bring quality tenants back it will never do the traffic count it used to bring. You have to factor in that people have switched back to driving just a few miles from home. People are no longer drive all over the place to do their shopping. Gasoline cost too much to blow through it like it's candy. In Crossroads prime, $20 is the most people paid for a tank of gas. Now people are averaging $50-$75 a tank. Not to mention malls had the bulk of the stores. Today you can shop most of your favorite store in less then 10 minutes from your house.

Crossroads, in its heyday, sported well over 100 stores, four anchor tenants, and to this day is barely 15 minutes from my front door, and I know for a fact I'm in a stone's throw of one of the highest disposable income demographic regions in the state. With two major interstates going by the property, and the nearest alternative "mass shopping center" in Moore a much greater hassle (IMHO) to access, it would seem to me the proximity argument mitigates in favor of some resuscitation of Crossroads.

[oneforone]

Nobody knows what they future will bring for Crossroads. If the place was destined to take off, somebody would have jumped on it the day it went to county foreclosure auction with a starting bid of $9 Million. Nobody bid on it. That by itself tells me the future is not too bright for Crossroads. Besides why get in a heated discussion about this place. Nobody here owns it. Nobody here has the means to invest in it and return it to it's former glory.

I think it stands a better chance of becoming the new location of Old Paris Flea Market then becoming a mall. Besides ODOT will rebuilding the 240/35 interchange coming in the next few years. That alone will kill the remaining businesses at Crossroads.

[SoonerDave]

I think it stands a better chance of becoming the new location of Old Paris Flea Market then becoming a mall. Besides ODOT will rebuilding the 240/35 interchange coming in the next few years. That alone will kill the remaining businesses at Crossroads.

The interchange rebuild is, at minimum, ten years away.

Don't have a link to the thread wherein this was discussed, all I remember was how depressed I was in reading it and realizing how many more accidents and injuries will take place in this area because of the long delay between now and the rebuild.

[BoulderSooner]

The interchange rebuild is, at minimum, ten years away.

Don't have a link to the thread wherein this was discussed, all I remember was how depressed I was in reading it and realizing how many more accidents and injuries will take place in this area because of the long delay between now and the rebuild.

it will start in 2015

GRADE, DRAIN & SURFACE
I-240: EB TO SB I-35 AT CROSSROADS INTERCHANGE (PHASE IA)
09032(17) FFY 2015
OKLAHOMA Div. 4 IS035 0.500 Mi. $4,000,000

then in 2018

INTERCHANGE
I-35: OVER THE I-240 JCT. (PHASE I) RECONSTR INTERCHG.
09032(05) FFY 2018
OKLAHOMA Div. 4 IS035 1.000 Mi. $14,233,431

[megax11]

I really can't stand when idiots buy something, get peoples' hopes up about said place, then just leave it be.

These goofballs at Raptor LLC obviously either had too much ambition, but were nothing but amateurs, or just wanted to buy it to make some small bank.

I called a store today, in that mall. They stated that 579 is closing today. Hot Topic is about to close. Gamestop there is about to close as well.

So in trying to keep people there and get new merchants, these guys sure aren't doing a good job, as three more stores are now leaving.

So unless they are allowing stores to close, so they can do renovations, the people who bought the mall are seeing their plans go straight down the crapper. Sucky owners are sucky.

[megax11]

I think this is about to go under major renovation, saw a bid for a multi-million dollar renovation, about time!

Where did you see this? As I stated above, 3 stores are about to move out. 579 closes today, Hot Topic and Gamestop. If stores are leaving why would there be renovation? Wouldn't that be taking a risk?

[Swake2]

I really can't stand when idiots buy something, get peoples' hopes up about said place, then just leave it be.

These goofballs at Raptor LLC obviously either had too much ambition, but were nothing but amateurs, or just wanted to buy it to make some small bank.

I called a store today, in that mall. They stated that 579 is closing today. Hot Topic is about to close. Gamestop there is about to close as well.

So in trying to keep people there and get new merchants, these guys sure aren't doing a good job, as three more stores are now leaving.

So unless they are allowing stores to close, so they can do renovations, the people who bought the mall are seeing their plans go straight down the crapper. Sucky owners are sucky.

Won't be long now before it costs to much to keep the heat and air going.

[Spartan]

I really can't stand when idiots buy something, get peoples' hopes up about said place, then just leave it be.

These goofballs at Raptor LLC obviously either had too much ambition, but were nothing but amateurs, or just wanted to buy it to make some small bank.

I called a store today, in that mall. They stated that 579 is closing today. Hot Topic is about to close. Gamestop there is about to close as well.

So in trying to keep people there and get new merchants, these guys sure aren't doing a good job, as three more stores are now leaving.

So unless they are allowing stores to close, so they can do renovations, the people who bought the mall are seeing their plans go straight down the crapper. Sucky owners are sucky.

I don't know if you're being serious or not, but you do understand that this is totally off of the OKC development radar? OKC itself (not Moore or MWC) is starting to get more serious about southside retail, and that includes accepting that Crossroads will never come back. I fully expect that Crossroads will be boarded up and just sit there, and if you think that's shocking, I know of a power plant on prime real estate up at Belle Isle circa 1980-2000 that I'd love to interest you in...

I understand the southside perspective because that's where I grew up, and when we weren't living in Houston, we were on the southside. All my family is on the southside. I remember going to that mall a lot back in the 90s, even when we were just coming up for family christmas holidays and so on. It's just a sign of the times.

There are much better opportunities that have opened up for this city in terms of retail, especially downtown, inner north side, and I can't say enough about the planned development around Nichols Hills right now. The SW 44th Street corridor has been identified as strategic for southside retail, and now the city is investing in infrastructure and aesthetic improvements along there (you may have noticed the new decorative intersections going in at 44th/Western and 44th/Walker). If you really want to see a strong southside, I would be excited about that in particular.

You have to understand that Crossroads was a bad project to begin with. It was just very indicative of a time (60s-70s) in which developers made a lot of bad mistakes. They were convinced that OKC would grow to the SE, not the NW. They were dead-wrong as it turns out. Furthermore, even if they had chosen the right location, Crossroads is old sprawl, and sprawl doesn't last very long. Crossroads would be getting replaced by something out at Draper right now if that was indeed the direction OKC would be growing in. This is where sustainability comes into play, we have to make sure that our development in the future stands the test of time, rather than answering the temporary needs of today. That's what city planning should be doing, but as we know, it doesn't always do its job all that well in this city, even today.

[Soonerman]

Just tear it down.

[SoonerDave]

Actually, OKC grew to the *southwest*, not the southeast. Some of Oklahoma's highest per-capita income demographics are centered smack-dab in the SW 104th and Penn area and surrounding, oh, two or three-mile radius, which is just SW of Crossroads. Had they planned a few miles west, or even south, it would likely be thriving. Alas, hindsight.

About 44th - Given that its now heavily a medical campus due to the expanding presence of Integris, and that it also seems Sears is going to fold up tents just about any day now, I can't see SW 44th and Western becoming anything interesting at a retail level anytime soon. Head either direction from 44th and Western and its just not very appealing either direction. I remember when we used to frequent that location and the Sequoyah-Reding Shopping Center, with Streets, Dodson's Cafeteria, etc, etc. Not anymore.

[SoonerDave]

There are much better opportunities that have opened up for this city in terms of retail, especially downtown, inner north side, and I can't say enough about the planned development around Nichols Hills right now. The SW 44th Street corridor has been identified as strategic for southside retail, and now the city is investing in infrastructure and aesthetic improvements along there (you may have noticed the new decorative intersections going in at 44th/Western and 44th/Walker). If you really want to see a strong southside, I would be excited about that in particular.

I live in SW OKC, and I haven't been anywhere near 44th and Western since I was a kid. New retail is pulling people south (to Moore and Norman) and southwest (Tri City), not north, so if the city really is pouring money into 44th street as a new "retail corridor," that's a project that's failed before it starts.

You have to understand that Crossroads was a bad project to begin with.

No it wasn't. The statement implies the mall was never successful, which simply isn't accurate.

...They were convinced that OKC would grow to the SE, not the NW. They were dead-wrong as it turns out. Furthermore, even if they had chosen the right location, Crossroads is old sprawl, and sprawl doesn't last very long. Crossroads would be getting replaced by something out at Draper right now if that was indeed the direction OKC would be growing in. This is where sustainability comes into play, we have to make sure that our development in the future stands the test of time, rather than answering the temporary needs of today. That's what city planning should be doing, but as we know, it doesn't always do its job all that well in this city, even today.

Don't know if I agree with all that. Crossroads was a very successful regional hallmark over its first 10-15 or so years of existence, which pushes up to about 1987. Developers could not have predicted the blight emerging *from the north and west* combined with the industrial presence that would make the area decreasingly attractive. As for it being "old sprawl," that logic would have precluded the redevelopment of Penn Square - heck, it was an open-air, 1960's throwback that had at best a modest future until someone came in with the audacious plan of expanding it and enclosing it. The mistake Crossroads developers did make, however, was misjudging growth to the SE rather than the S and SW, as I noted in another post.

[ljbab728]

The mistake Crossroads developers did make, however, was misjudging growth to the SE rather than the S and SW, as I noted in another post.

I don't see that as an issue in their problems. It takes 5 minutes to get there from the I44 - I240 junction and there is much more traffic in the I240 - I35 area.

[SoonerDave]

I don't see that as an issue in their problems. It takes 5 minutes to get there from the I44 - I240 junction and there is much more traffic in the I240 - I35 area.

While I understand and agree that the real, practical distance to those areas is very short, I'm thinking in terms of their appeal to that area over the long haul. That is, Crossroads is unintentionally bounded to the north and west by industrial, nasty Valley Brook, and some rather distressed housing development(s). Had Crossroads been built, say, on the SW corner of that same interchange, or perhaps even, say, a mile or two farther south, they would *already* have been reaping the benefits being realized by the Moore shops, and not been nearly so affected by the above factors. As much as anything, Crossroads became paralyzed (right or wrong) in the eyes of many because of its location. I just think there's an irony in realizing a relatively slight move in its location could have yielded an extraordinary difference in its future. Given the development of other retail to the west (all along I-240) and down I-35 (into Moore), it was clear the developers had the right idea. They just didn't aim the location dart quite right when they started turning shovels.

Speculation, I realize. Obviously, we'll never know what might have happened.

[ljbab728]

While I understand and agree that the real, practical distance to those areas is very short, I'm thinking in terms of their appeal to that area over the long haul. That is, Crossroads is unintentionally bounded to the north and west by industrial, nasty Valley Brook, and some rather distressed housing development(s). Had Crossroads been built, say, on the SW corner of that same interchange, or perhaps even, say, a mile or two farther south, they would *already* have been reaping the benefits being realized by the Moore shops, and not been nearly so affected by the above factors. As much as anything, Crossroads became paralyzed (right or wrong) in the eyes of many because of its location. I just think there's an irony in realizing a relatively slight move in its location could have yielded an extraordinary difference in its future. Given the development of other retail to the west (all along I-240) and down I-35 (into Moore), it was clear the developers had the right idea. They just didn't aim the location dart quite right when they started turning shovels.

Speculation, I realize. Obviously, we'll never know what might have happened.

Yes it is speculation but, as I've mentioned before, I started shopping at Crossroad from the time it first opened. I never once gave any thought to the surrounding area when deciding to go there. I think that was a minimal influence on why it started failing.

[oneforone]

There are some investment groups that are known as mall slumlords. They buy a mall with the notion of "If traffic returns, we will put a little money into it. If not we milk the cow until she is dry and try to market it to somebody/some sucker we can sell it to for a profit."

I think the right people could turn the place around however, there are much hotter properties in Oklahoma City right now.

[SoonerDave]

Yes it is speculation but, as I've mentioned before, I started shopping at Crossroad from the time it first opened. I never once gave any thought to the surrounding area when deciding to go there. I think that was a minimal influence on why it started failing.

It isn't about what the area was *then*, it's about what it became over time. My family and I started shopping there when it first opened as well, and in 1974, the areas I mentioned above were in nowhere near the condition they are today, and Valley Brook didn't have quite the reputation it does now. Of *course* we gave no thought to the surrounding area. The gang influence that infiltrated SE OKC moved that way over a period of two-plus decades, into that very area as it aged and deteriorated. No way any developer short of having a crystal ball could have predicted that's how the region would unfold. My point is that the irony is that if they had built Crossroads one or two miles west, or south, and that surrounding environment doesn't "close in" on the mall the same way, if at all.

Generally, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one I remember numerous threads right here on this forum that tried to tell people that Crossroads, when it was at least still fighting for life, was a deathtrap and you'd get blown away by gangs in the parking lot (yes, I remember threads that had that very theme, and it was ridiculous).

Given the number of times I'd heard it described that way, the number of people who spread exaggerated rumors about it, all coupled with the reality of the gang presence in the mall, I just can't go along with the idea that the perception of Crossroads as a "gangbanger haven" wasn't a significant negative influence (among many) over time contributing to its demise.

Like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree

[megax11]

Just goes to show that journalists here in OKC don't have a clue what to write stories about.

Had I been a journalist, I'd be knocking on the door of Raptor Properties LLC, and asking Mike Dillard what the deal is. Then I would prod and ask "so are you one of those buyers who bought and never truly intended on fixing it up? Did you really just want to make some profit?"

Fail Oklahoma journalists are fail.

[metro]

Just goes to show that journalists here in OKC don't have a clue what to write stories about.

Had I been a journalist, I'd be knocking on the door of Raptor Properties LLC, and asking Mike Dillard what the deal is. Then I would prod and ask "so are you one of those buyers who bought and never truly intended on fixing it up? Did you really just want to make some profit?"

Fail Oklahoma journalists are fail.

While I disagree that Crossroads has a future as a mall, I do agree Oklahoma journalists (excluding meteorologists) are fail when it comes to investigative journalism.

[MDot]

Just goes to show that journalists here in OKC don't have a clue what to write stories about.

Had I been a journalist, I'd be knocking on the door of Raptor Properties LLC, and asking Mike Dillard what the deal is. Then I would prod and ask "so are you one of those buyers who bought and never truly intended on fixing it up? Did you really just want to make some profit?"

Fail Oklahoma journalists are fail.

Why don't you just do that anyways instead of making all journalists seem mentally handicapped (even if they are) because they don't report on the story you want? LOL

[megax11]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to know what's going on with the mall. Us citizens/fans of the mall want to stop being bounced around and teased, by people who say they care to fix something up, but really intend to do nothing.

Journalists and news sites were quick to break the news of its sale, why are they not asking when said TLC (as one of the owers on the news put it) is going to be initiated on the mall?

[Jesseda]

Wonder if someone will call crossroads mall as a unofficial okctalk reporter and get the scoop

[MDot]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to know what's going on with the mall. Us citizens/fans of the mall want to stop being bounced around and teased, by people who say they care to fix something up, but really intend to do nothing.

Journalists and news sites were quick to break the news of its sale, why are they not asking when said TLC (as one of the owers on the news put it) is going to be initiated on the mall?

I know you're not the only one because I grew up right down the street from it and my great-grandparents still live by there. My great-grandma is always asking me about it and I have a lot of friends in the area as well that ask about it so you're obviously not the only one who cares but the only ones that really care are the people in the general vicinity or the ones with sentimental ties to the mall such as myself since I grew up right by it and went there almost everyday with my great-grandparents.

It does seem like they're just toying with us and sitting on the mall trying to earn a few bucks but personally I highly doubt it will come back as a mall anyways, which is sad but sometimes reality hurts. I hope they can salvage it but I'm not going to cross my fingers until someone with actual plans buys it or these two goons move along with their "plans".

And for the record, I was just kidding with what I said too you which it seems like you knew but I'm just throwing that out there. I would like some.sort of report on it as well.

[scootinger]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to know what's going on with the mall. Us citizens/fans of the mall want to stop being bounced around and teased, by people who say they care to fix something up, but really intend to do nothing.

Journalists and news sites were quick to break the news of its sale, why are they not asking when said TLC (as one of the owers on the news put it) is going to be initiated on the mall?

You have to realize...the probability that Crossroads will be a retail destination again (in any manner resembling its current state) is close to zero. Keeping it a traditional retail shopping mall is probably not a viable option for Dillard. I'm supposing that he is considering other options (if he's looking at any near-term plans).

Go do some research and look into dead malls that have deteriorated to the state in which Crossroads is in now. A site like Deadmalls.com is a good start. Very few (if any) ever managed to be revitalized with retail. The ones that were hadn't gone as far downhill as CRM has, or they had some significant advantage that CRM does not (ie location).

Look at this from a business perspective. Even if they decided to renovate the mall for retail use again, why would retailers want to locate there? There are so many other locations in the OKC area that either exist as retail, or would be more desirable than CRM to be built at. Enclosed malls aren't popular to build (or rebuild) anymore. There are quite a few still around that are doing well, but in recent years very few have been built. The trend is to build power centers (like in Moore or I-240), lifestyle centers, or urban retail.

Plus there's the fact that most of the place is vacant...kinda a "chicken and the egg" problem. It's ~80% empty and has no anchor stores. If you're building a fancy new shopping center from scratch (or if you have a popular one), it's feasible to attract good retailers. They probably get anchors first, then more small retailers. But of all areas in the OKC area that could be built, why would they choose somewhere like CRM that has a bad reputation and is in a less affluent part of town?

The best outcome I could see happening would be for it to be reused for office/public/community purposes in the same way as Shepherd Mall has been. I think that's the direction Heritage Park is heading too. LifeChurch recently opened in an anchor spot, even though the mall's empty (sears is still there i think). The owner of the old MW space (and now the mall itself) rented out the MW building to FEMA for a while, and supposedly wants to turn the mall into an office complex or similar as well.

Or reusing parts of the existing structure and rebuilding the site in a completely different form could be feasible. I know some people have said it would be a good site for TOD given its proximity to the railroad (whenever OK gets commuter rail service). There could be a street grid laid out on the existing site, and perhaps it could be built around some of the anchor buildings. Turning dead mall sites into "town centers"/TODs is becoming common in a lot of areas.

Still, something will probably happen at CRM soon. They're approaching the point where the cost to heat/cool the building and keep whatever staff (security, management, maintenance) they have remaining will exceed the rents they receive. Especially with its size, i can't imagine that climate control is cheap. At that point, i'd imagine they would make the decision to shutter the mall. Hopefully it won't come down to them just letting it sit around and decay for years.

[Spartan]

Actually, OKC grew to the *southwest*, not the southeast. Some of Oklahoma's highest per-capita income demographics are centered smack-dab in the SW 104th and Penn area and surrounding, oh, two or three-mile radius, which is just SW of Crossroads. Had they planned a few miles west, or even south, it would likely be thriving. Alas, hindsight.

About 44th - Given that its now heavily a medical campus due to the expanding presence of Integris, and that it also seems Sears is going to fold up tents just about any day now, I can't see SW 44th and Western becoming anything interesting at a retail level anytime soon. Head either direction from 44th and Western and its just not very appealing either direction. I remember when we used to frequent that location and the Sequoyah-Reding Shopping Center, with Streets, Dodson's Cafeteria, etc, etc. Not anymore.

Not a sustainable viewpoint. If you relegate the entire inner southside to dilapidation you've lost the battle for the entire southside. It's almost counter-productive for OKC to invest in anything that orients that entire half of the city more toward Moore/Norman and less toward downtown. We need a strategic investment plan for revitalizing the southside, not a boilerplate one. 44th is also an opportunity to create unique ventures, which is important because we need to focus on long-term planning rather than short-term planning of new strip malls, expecting to abandon those and then expand even further out.

As for your own assessment of the southside, I agree that the medical presence is definitely a strength. I just don't see it as expanding very much, as the only tangible expansion that Integris as done in the last decade is a one-story cancer treatment center in the back of their campus closer to Grand Blvd. I also don't see Sears closing as inevitable, but rather hard to predict just because they've had pretty low traffic for as long as I can remember and have mysteriously remained in business so far. That massive Sears parking lot, even if they stay in business, is such a prime redevelopment opportunity.

Also consider that the city has already invested in new decorative intersections at Walker and Western, and new sidewalks and lighting between. 44th can become a smashing urban redevelopment target. It can revitalize the southside AND it can benefit people south of 240 by offering services and businesses that are unique, and it's still a lot closer than 19th in Moore or points further south.

At some point you absolutely have to start developing the southside in a way that's better for OKC, not Moore. The southside is NOT a lost cause, especially if you find the right opportunity. There are a lot of opportunities there, if you look at strategic available land, high traffic counts, already needed basic infrastructure investments, existing urban fabric, and how all of this can possibly come together in a dynamic redevelopment scheme. Then not only are you talking about building a strip mall with a Target and Best Buy on 134th (won't ever happen, both have existing stores way too close, but just to show an example), but then you're talking about those resources existing in a more urban, newer, fresher environment that injects a lot of vitality. One opportunity that I know a huge need exists for is a movie theater somewhere around Capitol Hill, which could serve as the anchor catalyst to get other major redevelopment going.

I also agree that there are a lot of places that would be failed projects even before conception. I'm not saying that these kinds of opportunities exist anywhere along 59th or Grand Boulevard. 44th is centrally located for the southside, has the strategic available land, very high traffic counts, and 44th is also a much nicer corridor than 59th, which will be a bigger problem in terms of dilapidation, and it may just be that the southside makes dramatic improvement while 59th remains a pocket of dilapidation (ala Lyrewood or 122nd/Penn). 44th is easily "nice enough" to work with and build on, and I believe that the southside will eventually come back if you look at the exploding population even in old areas, the rising economic profile of the Hispanic community in OKC, the proximity to Core2Shore and quick/easy commutes downtown, and especially the sheer economic opportunity caused by the southside being a retail black hole for the last 20 years.

There is simply no way that anything further out, more suburban has as much potential for success. I think even people with a suburban preference should be in favor of 44th over anything else on the southside. At some point you have to lay aside that suburban preference and recognize what is best for the southside, just as all of OKC has understood the importance of Downtown OKC in relation to the rest of the city. Granted, southsiders never subscribed to that point of view (it was the Hornet nest of "Not This MAPS" afterall) yet I think part of that is because the southside is too detached from downtown, and also because there's this "that doesn't help our side of town" mentality. So at some point, the southside has to especially be concerned with holistic planning. Something badly needs to be done for the entire southside.