Midtown

[Steve]

Guys, we can't keep dragging these feuds and thinly-veiled snipes into every thread.

I'm going to start deleting / moving them because this is getting old.


If you want to discuss general urban development there is a thread for that.

Remind me to send you a Christmas card.
For what it's worth, I'm very excited about the Guardian/Park Place alley project. It may be another game changer when it comes to urban design in downtown OKC

[soonerguru]

It has been stated by experts on this site over and over that the cost to preserve and rennovate a historic building is less than to tear it down and build a new one. If that is the case, why should we citizens subsidize the private development venture?

I thought the opposite was the case. Which experts have said this and when?

[bluedogok]

Renovation is almost always more expensive than building new, especially when you are doing anything that approaches "historical". I can't recall anyone saying that (major) renovation is cheaper than building new.

[Doug Loudenback]

Those photos are great, Pete. Noticing the inside stairs made me wonder ... is an elevator also present?

[ljbab728]

Those photos are great, Pete. Noticing the inside stairs made me wonder ... is an elevator also present?

This floorplan doesn't indicate an elevator.

http://midtownr.com/pdf/HaddenHall-Floorplan.pdf

[Frustratedoptimist]

This building transformation is incredible. What a wonderful addition to MidTown. We're waiting for a 3 bedroom condo/apt with access to a roof-top deck (or terrace), in MidTown, SOSA or Automobile Alley. My family and I, as well as another couple, would gladly buy or rent for $1500-$2100/mo. We've looked at The Hill, Block 42 and Maywood, and they're beautiful, but the floor plans (bedrooms) are awkward and the prices are too high for us. Would love to work with a builder and design units for an urban-minded family of four. Has anyone heard of anything like this planned or underway?

[city]

This building transformation is incredible. What a wonderful addition to MidTown. We're waiting for a 3 bedroom condo/apt with access to a roof-top deck (or terrace), in MidTown, SOSA or Automobile Alley. My family and I, as well as another couple, would gladly buy or rent for $1500-$2100/mo. We've looked at The Hill, Block 42 and Maywood, and they're beautiful, but the floor plans (bedrooms) are awkward and the prices are too high for us. Would love to work with a builder and design units for an urban-minded family of four. Has anyone heard of anything like this planned or underway?

The only 3 bedrooms for rent are at The Legacy and there are no projects being developed that are considering 3 bedrooms., It is not economic. The developers would build all studios and one bedrooms if they could get away with it.
I'm not 100% for certain if this is the case for LEVEL but I know the other projects rumored and on the boards aren't going to have 3 bedrooms.
I think you should look at building in SOSA.

[Frustratedoptimist]

Thanks, city. We've checked into SOSA and will again if we see or hear about any condos or large apartments planned.

According to the consulting firm who completed the downtown housing study, one of the key indicators of a downtown that offers a safe and complete quality of life, is the presence of strollers. I'm paraphrasing of course and I apologize for not having the firm's name with me, but I think its part of the city's housing strategy to work with developers to encourage more diverse forms of housing and amenities. This seemed to be understood, even by the developers present. Three bed units would attract a much larger market, more diversity and potentially higher incomes, especially now that the school is planned.

It was obvious that the implementation of the city's downtown housing strategy depends a great deal on the economy and of course political will. Good thing we're patient.

[Urbanized]

If that is the case with this building then you make an excellent point and I owe BoulderSooner an apology. If you want the money you have to accept the guidelines that go along with it.

BTW - I love what they did with the place.

It's the same reason that (for instance) the floor of the Skirvin is not carpeted or new marble - or even polished - and that the wall by the elevator bank there wasn't painted when the hotel was renovated. Part of the funding mechanism for the Skirvin Hilton renovation was the use of historic tax credits. Due to the fact that they were used, the developer had to retain certain elements of the building's past so as not to compromise its historic nature.

That included keeping W.B. Skirvin's original flooring (when the building was constructed he had a rugged tile installed so that his hotel - while luxurious - remained inviting to cowboys and oilmen with muddy boots). That same much-worn tile is what you see today in the the Skirvin. The wall by the elevators has some ancient, faded stenciling on it. If you look closely at it you might think they forgot to paint a wall in the renovation. Instead, the old design was carefully preserved.

Could the Skirvin's developers have tiled the floor with Mexican limestone, and painted the wall purple? Absolutely. They just would have had to do the place without historic preservation tax credits.

The same is true for Hadden Hall; they could have done pretty much anything they wanted to with the building (within the boundaries of basic downtown design guidelines). But as soon as they ask the public to become a financial partner in the process, they have to allow the public to have more of a say in how the project is done. That's plenty fair, as far as I'm concerned.

[wschnitt]

The new restaurant where Treasures Past was is getting an outside seating deck along Walker. Sweet.

[Pete]

That's GoGo Sushi... Wonder when they'll be open?

[wschnitt]

That's GoGo Sushi... Wonder when they'll be open?

I wonder the same. It does not seem far off since they are working hard on it.

I also wonder business-wise why you would not put a "coming soon" sign and get the excitement going.

[Spartan]

It's the same reason that (for instance) the floor of the Skirvin is not carpeted or new marble - or even polished - and that the wall by the elevator bank there wasn't painted when the hotel was renovated. Part of the funding mechanism for the Skirvin Hilton renovation was the use of historic tax credits. Due to the fact that they were used, the developer had to retain certain elements of the building's past so as not to compromise its historic nature.

That included keeping W.B. Skirvin's original flooring (when the building was constructed he had a rugged tile installed so that his hotel - while luxurious - remained inviting to cowboys and oilmen with muddy boots). That same much-worn tile is what you see today in the the Skirvin. The wall by the elevators has some ancient, faded stenciling on it. If you look closely at it you might think they forgot to paint a wall in the renovation. Instead, the old design was carefully preserved.

Could the Skirvin's developers have tiled the floor with Mexican limestone, and painted the wall purple? Absolutely. They just would have had to do the place without historic preservation tax credits.

The same is true for Hadden Hall; they could have done pretty much anything they wanted to with the building (within the boundaries of basic downtown design guidelines). But as soon as they ask the public to become a financial partner in the process, they have to allow the public to have more of a say in how the project is done. That's plenty fair, as far as I'm concerned.

So Hadden Hall's floorplates mirror the original setup?

[wschnitt]

So Hadden Hall's floorplates mirror the original setup?

Partially. The hallways are where they were originally. The amount of doors in the hallway is the same. However, half of the doors do not open. The front of the building was a "sleeping" porch at one time and had no dividers. Now it is divided in 3, with the entrance in the middle and either side belonging to apartments. This once continuous space is shown by the glass blocks, signifying that the space was all one.

In short, the floor plan in the public areas pay tribute to history.

[Spartan]

In short, the floor plan in the public areas pay tribute to history.

So that's the key. Gotcha. I was wondering, and I'm only partially familiar with the historic preservation codes, but are they use-specific as well?

[wschnitt]

So that's the key. Gotcha. I was wondering, and I'm only partially familiar with the historic preservation codes, but are they use-specific as well?

My information comes from tours of the Cline and Hadden Hall Apartment buildings. I would say it is probably not use specific since they were both originally hotels as well as the Siber Motor Hotel. I am not an expert on the subject, I am just relaying what I was told by the architect.

[wschnitt]

Another thing to note, is that is does not have to BE ORIGINAL it just needs to LOOK ORIGINAL.

[Urbanized]

Depends on what "it" is. In many cases the NPS guidelines would NOT support removal of original "contributing" materials and substitution of new, depending on the condition of the historic. If you remove too much of the actual history, a building becomes less historic by definition.

For instance, demolition of intricate plasterwork on a ceiling, and replacement with lookalike modern extruded foam replica moldings just to save the expense of stripping and painting would be discouraged. But if a section of the historic plaster were damaged/missing, the guidelines WOULD allow replica moldings to be made and grafted in using modern products and techniques. This happened in the Skirvin, and in the historic Oklahoman Building (now the headquarters of the YMCA).

That is why when tax credits are used a preservation expert is assigned to make recommendations and to monitor the work. In Oklahoma that typically falls to SHPO, the State Historic Preservation Office, in cooperation with Preservation Oklahoma and OHS.

And again, NONE of these restrictions fall on a project that does not seek tax credits. In most neighborhoods you can just hack away at the history of your building at your leisure if you're doing it all on your own nickel.

[wschnitt]

Depends on what "it" is. In many cases the NPS guidelines would NOT support removal of original "contributing" materials and substitution of new, depending on the condition of the historic. If you remove too much of the actual history, a building becomes less historic by definition.

For instance, demolition of intricate plasterwork on a ceiling, and replacement with lookalike modern extruded foam replica moldings just to save the expense of stripping and painting would be discouraged. But if a section of the historic plaster were damaged/missing, the guidelines WOULD allow replica moldings to be made and grafted in using modern products and techniques. This happened in the Skirvin, and in the historic Oklahoman Building (now the headquarters of the YMCA).

That is why when tax credits are used a preservation expert is assigned to make recommendations and to monitor the work. In Oklahoma that typically falls to SHPO, the State Historic Preservation Office, in cooperation with Preservation Oklahoma and OHS.

And again, NONE of these restrictions fall on a project that does not seek tax credits. In most neighborhoods you can just hack away at the history of your building at your leisure if you're doing it all on your own nickel.

In the Cline for example, a lot of the original plaster was removed in favor of drywall without a problem.

[bluedogok]

And again, NONE of these restrictions fall on a project that does not seek tax credits. In most neighborhoods you can just hack away at the history of your building at your leisure if you're doing it all on your own nickel.

Maybe on the inside but some historical preservation districts have pretty strict controls on how much you can do to the exterior....as someone that I know has had to deal with on a few projects in Crown Heights.

[Rover]

To show the difference in preservation mentality, I have a vendor in Colchester, England who had a historically registered house. Every part oh his restoration had to not only use the exact same materials as original, but had to do it the original way it was constructed (much without nails even). NO shortcuts were allowed. Same woods had to be used with same finishes, mostly hand cut and scraped. Plaster had to be analyzed and new plaster mixed to be the same. Etc., etc.

[Urbanized]

Maybe on the inside but some historical preservation districts have pretty strict controls on how much you can do to the exterior....as someone that I know has had to deal with on a few projects in Crown Heights.

If you read my earlier post, I mentioned Crown Heights as one of the few places in OKC that actually has restrictive HP ordinances for exteriors. These are city ordinances, not state or federal. Heritage Hills is another. By the way, those ordinances only came into existence at the request and with the assistance of the residents in the neighborhoods in question. Most neighborhoods in OKC, including many with largely historic homes, do NOT have such restrictions. NO city neighborhood ordinances restrict interior renovations in any way.

I'm just trying to set the facts straight regarding where HP is a requirement. Most folks have very little if any understanding of where/how HP restrictions are enforced. I see and hear incorrect statements all the time -- including on this board -- about how onerous rehabilitation of old buildings is. Fact is, it's rarely the three-headed monster most people think it to be.

[Just the facts]

I'm just trying to set the facts straight regarding where HP is a requirement. Most folks have very little if any understanding of where/how HP restrictions are enforced. I see and hear incorrect statements all the time -- including on this board -- about how onerous rehabilitation of old buildings is. Fact is, it's rarely the three-headed monster most people think it to be.

...and let me say thanks for correcting the misconceptions.

How long do these HP restrctions stay in place? On a place like Hadden Hall will they be there forever? If someone buys this place in 30 years will they still have to keep X number of non-opening doors in the hallway? Is burning it down the only way out of the restrictions or is there an exit mechanism, like paying back the tax credits for instance?

[Urbanized]

...and let me say thanks for correcting the misconceptions.

How long do these HP restrctions stay in place? On a place like Hadden Hall will they be there forever? If someone buys this place in 30 years will they still have to keep X number of non-opening doors in the hallway? Is burning it down the only way out of the restrictions or is there an exit mechanism, like paying back the tax credits for instance?

That's a great question that I didn't know the answer to off of the top of my head (cut me some slack; it's been about a decade since my involvement with Main Street and NTHP-associated training..!). So I searched around a bit and found some info on the American Bar Association's website I found a nice explanation of the business/legal intricacies of historic tax credits. One passage relevant to your question states:

7. How Long Must the Tax Credit User Own the Property? An owner that claims the Historic Tax Credits must retain ownership of the property for at least five years after the date the project was placed in service, or the tax credits will be subject to recapture.

8. Recapture of the Credits. Historic Tax Credits can be recaptured if the project is sold before the end of the minimum five year holding period or if the property ceases to be income-producing. These recapture rules are laid out in IRC section 50(a). Recapture can also take place if the project ceases to comply with other transfer or leasing restrictions imposed under the program or if the project is physically altered such that it no longer complies with the approved rehabilitation improvements. See also Treas. Reg. § 1.48-12(f)(3). The amount of the credit recapture is calculated on a sliding scale based on how much of the minimum five year holding period has elapsed at the time of noncompliance.

[Just the facts]

Thank you for finding that information for me. You have provided a lot of good info.

So let me get this straight now.

1) A building only has to comply with HP regulations if the owner applies for and receives HP tax credits.
2) If the building fails to retain the historic characteristics for 5 years, or if it is sold, or if it ceases to become income-producing then the tax credits can be recaptured.

Does this mean that historic characteristics only have to remain in place during the time the tax credits are subject to recapture? In other words, other than having to pay back the tax credits are there any potential penalties for violating the HP requirements? In 5 years can they add on to Hadden Hall and make other modifications?