Bricktown getting old

[Patrick]

Here's an encoraging PM okcpulse sent me. I think he's right on the money.

I see you are becoming a bit discouraged, Patrick. It's okay, I've been in your place. You've done your fair share, but Patrick, you can't go at it alone. It takes a city. A few voices will raise eyebrows, but the buck stops there. Several thousand voices will move a herd, and that is the only way sweeping changes are made.

Ron Norick did it because he was in the right position. He was a mayor that used his powers the right way. But a shining star isn't common.

Councilors, organizations and even developers will all have their own agenda. Randy hogan is not a shining star, nor a politician. He is a business owner, and his only agenda is money.

Don't let the powers that be dicourage you. Oklahoma City doesn't belong to them. It belongs to you. Lower Bricktown will not always be Randy's property. Someone with more vision and influence in the right place will come along. I promise.

It will happen as suddenly as the Hornets did to our city. Randy's mistakes will either be enhanced or demolished. The OCURA will be asked for answrs they don't have, and their positions be extinguished.

Everything gets old before it booms. You will always have ups and downs. Just get through the downs, because there days in OKC are numbered.

I joined OKCTalk because it can be used as an engine for change in Oklahoma City. That, is actually, the purpose of a forum. To discuss, digest, brainstorm, colaborate and put into action. But someone has to lead the charge. Not everyone will get on board. You have to pick and choose the ones with the right energy, the same passion and the same goals for our city. That is how you build an army.

[writerranger]

Thank you, okcpulse, for sending that to Patrick. He needed it. I have noticed a lot of discouragement from Patrick and understand it, but we must remember that the good ole boy network is aging...new leadership is on the horizon. I also think we need to keep things in perspective as far as what's happened in the whole of downtown. Doug is right, the progress is unbelievable. Things aren't perfect. Things aren't exactly as we want it. Right now. Keep your head up, Patrick!

[jbrown84]

Wow. Depressing thread. I must say, Patrick, that overall I disagree with you. I've been spending a lot of time downtown/Bricktown taking pictures and even though I am disappointed with Lower Bricktown, I don't feel that Bricktown is getting old. You should have seen all the people down there on Sunday afternoon. Photographers taking pictures of the land run monument. Couples taking walks on the canal. Families taking carriage rides.

I, like okcpulse, am optimistic that empty spaces on the canal will be filled and surface parking will be replaced with buildings and parking garages.

Bricktown--even Lower Bricktown--is not as boring and suburban as some on this board like to say. Spaghetti Warehouse, Mickey Mantle's, The Mantel, Nonna's, Makers, Bricktown Brewery, Firefly, Harkins, Toby Keith's, The Biting Sow, Da Boat, Daddy Hinkles, Bourbon Street, and Tapwerks are all unique to Bricktown and most are local. It's not like all we have down there is Olive Garden and Red Lobster. It's not as overrun by chains as you guys are always saying. And the landscaping throughout Bricktown is maturing and looks really good. Although I am disappointed there is little canal level shopping/dining in LB, the landscaping on the canal and the fountain and the bridges look really nice.

[Urban Pioneer]

The problem with "lower" Bricktown is that it is planned like a suburban development. There is copy of the master plan in my studio. It is completely designed with cars and mostly low - medium rise buildings in mind. You have to understand that districts that you people have written about in other cities- that they love are "naturally" created and are "mom and pop" oriented. You cannot lay down the law one day and say "This is going to be a diverse, eclectic environment." and have it become one over night.

No, the real problem is that property values and rental rates or so high that very few people can afford them. The development that you do see is expensive and separated. Businesses are spread apart and seas of parking divided them.

We have basically created a modern pedestrian mall that happens to have a canal instead of a street entirely surrounded with wasteful surface parking instead of efficient parking garages connected by Public Transportation.

THE GOOD NEWS IS- People reference how they like the West End. The West End "has" evolved into a exciting urban environment. Or rather, the area AROUND the West End and along the DART line has grown in the exciting fashion that we all want. Bricktown's greatest achievement is that it is wetting the appetite for "REAL" spontaneous and eclectic development. I warrant that when I-40 is relocated and Walnut is re-opened, you will see the urban ciaos and excitement that people want.

However, when Urban Renewal chooses a developer (whether that is Moshe or not), that developer cannot create the natural environment that individual entrepreneurship can.

REGARDING BRICKTOWN URBAN DESIGN- The commission members are appointed by the mayor. They have no plans to enlarge their district to encompass "Lower Bricktown" as the design features, layout, and aesthetics are controlled by Urban Renewal and they have so far felt out of their jurisdiction. That could change with the I-40 relocation.

However, there is talk of a new Urban Design District that encompasses most of downtown.

[Urban Pioneer]

V-A. On February 14, the City Council confirmed the Mayor’s reappointments of Committee members Pitman, Wilson, and Yoeckel, for two-year terms ending July 1, 2006.


It looks like we missed our chance.

[Patrick]

You're right about Bricktown Urban Design...sorry for the mistake....most of the members on it are Bricktown property owners though.

[Pete]

I think Patrick is experiencing one of the common lows that come upon true civic boosters (and I put everyone on this thread in this category) due to unrealized dreams and general frustration.

I would bet everyone here feels the same way from time to time, especially when you become emotionally invested in a particular issue or development and it fails to meet your personal vision.

My particular issue has to do with unchecked urban sprawl at the direct expense of older, prettier neighborhoods. But that's for another thread.


Then I remember how far OKC has come in the last 10 years and try not to be so fatalistic in realizing (as okcpulse wisely pointed out) that people like Randy Hogan will fade away and be replaced by more McDermids and the like, especially as critical mass is established and areas start to get the attention of developers and investors outside the area and the local 'network'.

This is already starting to happen and I call it Phase II of the renaissance... The Skirvin and the Colcord are fantastic examples and their success will pave the way for (hopefully) many others. There are some great things happening in the Arts District, Automobile Alley and the Triangle that quickly come to mind.


We're all dreamers and that's very much needed but sometimes you have to ground yourself by taking stock in how far we've come and not getting too discouraged you've done all you can do and things still go wrong (like Lower BT).


Patrick, Doug makes some very good points about a longer-term perspective. Sure, you may remember the days when the first businesses moved in east of the train tracks, but you didn't live for decades in OKC where downtown was being systematically destroyed and was a very depressing place to be. Or go a good 20 years without *any* new civic development, disappointing or otherwise.

But for every frustrating project, there's a great one and IMO we're already starting to see more of the latter and less of the former.

[Patrick]

You guys are right. At least we are getting establishments like Bass Pro and Harkins which actually have an interest in downtown. Several years ago retailers wouldn't have even considered Bricktown.

Bricktown will continue to grow. I only hope it doesn't go the way of Dallas' West End.

[AFCM]

Here are some new things going on.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...t=76150&page=1
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...t=76150&page=2
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...t=76150&page=3

I will say, like Patrick, I would like to see the vacant spaces and parking lots taken up by retail and other establishments.

Many of you may disagree, but I would like to see a casino erected. I know most of the money would benefit the tribes and not OKC, but a casino would be something to bring people downtown and it would be unique. (www.bricktownokc.com did a story on this)

I'm originally from OKC, but I've been away for a while. I come back every year or so and I am impressed with the new additions everytime I return, however, I still get annoyed at seeing the open land and parking lots near the canal.

I am excited about the prospects of "Riverside" though. Anyways, if any of you are downtown and happen to have a camera can you snap a couple shots of OKC and Mustang (my hometown)? My address is jakepoire@yahoo.com. I still have a few more months left in Iraq and I'm terribly homesick. OKC is a very nice place and it's only going to get better. I just wish the pace would pick up.

AFCM

[jbrown84]

Many of you may disagree, but I would like to see a casino erected. I know most of the money would benefit the tribes and not OKC, but a casino would be something to bring people downtown and it would be unique. (www.bricktownokc.com did a story on this)

But would it really be unique? What is so unique about a casino? It's not unique to Oklahoma and it's not unique to large cities. It would only be considered small time because we don't have full-scale gambling in this state. Just my opinion.

[gbyte]

I personally feel that if the metro area could somehow get some sort of a mass-transit system started but still allow it to be scaled out for when more population comes to the metro area.

I know that cities like Boston often have tons of the walk-in style of places (stores/eateries/etc.) because most of the travel is from mass-transit. Until something of this nature can happen to the metro area I find it much harder to try and convince people to stop driving in but I think having some parking structures erected and then get some buildings that more support the walk-in type of business would be good.


To me the biggest thing Bricktown does need is more "walk-in" style of business and a much bigger variety such as stores, museums/galleries, and smaller eateries. The only problem with most of these places is that if they are not run by a large company the "risk" associated with letting these people in the buildings is much higher and most of the building owners seem to want to find very low risk businesses to fit into the available spaces.

I believe that eventually Bricktown could become more of an area like that but there would need to be a large change in how people come into the area in order to change how the businesses are situated and used.

[Patrick]

The biggest problem we have right now is folks like Jim Brewer charging an arm and a leg for rent. I still don't understand why these guys would rather their properties sit vacant than lower their leasing prices.

[fsusurfer]

I've lived in Bricktown for the last 3 1/2 years. Look out my back door and I can see the movie theatre, Nona's, the ballpark, ect. I don't feel like Bricktown is getting stale at all. There are always people downtown, and every few months something new opens up. Im excited about simply fondue opening next month. As far as price of rental/leasing space getting cheaper, that isnt about to happen, espicially with the possibility of the Hornets staying long term. I've been to many cities in the south, such as Atlanta, Miami, Orlando, Tampa, N.O., Dallas, and I have to say that Bricktown is one of the safest, cleanest, and cheapest entertainment districts I've been to. Is there room for improvment? Sure, but we do have a very nice, fun place to go out and enjoy a date, a evening at the ballpark, or a night at the bars/clubs with friends.

[BDP]

I still don't understand why these guys would rather their properties sit vacant than lower their leasing prices.

100% agree, especially when they had so much public money invested in the area to give their propeties that value. We put that money in so that the city could have some downtown entertainment options, not just to increase a few guys' net worth.

[metro]

I agree 100% BDP. Numerous buildings have set vacant and probably still will sit vacant for years because of the high rent. WHile some are paying those prices it is still unrealistic for the majority of businesses. Lowering the rent would only improve the quality of life in downtown OKC and expand the options in Bricktown on so many levels. In fact, it would help fill the vacancies and drive demand for more construction thus creating a greater demand to be in Bricktown. It's the chicken vs. the egg dilemma and apparently the developers think the chicken came first and will pay. History should tell them otherwise.

[venture]

Revisiting some of the things I've said in the past about what would be good to help grow the ENTERTAINMENT district of Oklahoma City.

1. Casino - yes this would be nice to have down there. I would like to see something modeled after Casino Windsor in Windsor, ON. It is a beautiful facility but simple. You have two floors of your gaming areas and then several nice restaurants, and then a good hotel all in one. http://www.casinowindsor.com/ It isn't a massive facility, but I think something put together right would definitely be a destination for downtown - especially when combined with the other venues.

To those that say just another casino, that is where it must be developed differently. OKC residents currently venture to LuckyStar, Goldsby, Thunderbird, Remington Park, etc. It must be a facility that is superior to those in both experience and gaming options (given the state restrictions). However, on the flip side - we have Riverwind near Norman opening up this year that will bring a casino to the level of Winstar to the metro area. So all options will need to be weighed, but I would say...no hotel - no casino. It has to be a packaged resort - along the river.

2. Open air shopping - I would like to see a selection of stores similar to what Grapevine Mills down across the border has. Yes it is all, or mostly all, outlet stores - but the options would target such a vast group of people that it wouldn't matter. You also get in several of the theme restaurants to go along as well.

3. Water park resort - This would be perfect for the next hotel to be built. Yes there are those that low White Water Bay, but what better than a water park that is open year round in a nice climate controlled environment? This would be pefect for lower Bricktown and would be another destination spot to draw people in. Some links for those wondering what I'm talking about:

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs...27/-1/BUSINESS

http://castawaybay.cedarpoint.com/

http://www.avalanchebay.com/

4. GameWorks or Dave and Busters - A large scale gaming facility would be another huge draw, but more so another option for those already there. http://www.gameworks.com/ http://www.daveandbusters.com/?f=1


If all of these options were done, we would be seeing a city center that would make people jealous. We also need to keep in the backs of our minds, the Hornets are only here for another year and then it is all questionable on which team we get (and when) after that. If we can get some of these venues rolling out and in the planning stages now, we will be able to market it to the nation thanks to the exposure of the Hornets. Even if the venues aren't opened at the end of the Hornets game here, people can see what all is coming to OKC and really get interested about it. Not to mention how the city would be even more attractive to the NBA and its players.

[writerranger]

Venture,

I think you mean Gainesville's Factory Outlet Mall on I-35? Grapevine Mills is an enclosed mall near DFW in Grapevine.

I like the open air shopping, but I have long envisioned a boardwalk with dining, retail and entertainment along the Oklahoma River. I have often used Houston's (actually Clear Lake's) Kemah Boardwalk as an example. The boardwalk idea just fits with Lower Bricktown to the River. I'm talking complete with a huge boardwalk carousel that would make quite an impression on the eastern edge of the OKC skyline. Here's a pic of a portion of Kemah Boardwalk....imagine OUR boardwalk with brick and clapboard!

[Patrick]

Gameworks was already mentioned for Bricktown. They pulled out of the deal, as the company isn't doing very well.

Gainesville's Outlet mall isn't doing well either. Not sure if you've been there lately, but it's actually pretty empty. Outlet malls have a short lifespan.

I personally wouldn't want to see an outlet mall in Bricktown, or a typical run of the mill casino. We need unique attractions.

Go to downtown in any small town, and you'll see small, one of a kind shops. That's what people love, and that's what attracts people downtown. We're really lacking that in OKC.

[venture]

If I meant Gainsville, I would have said such. I'm talking about he store selection in Grapevine just in an open air format. Also, regarding the casino - hence why I stated resort...not the typical Okie casino (or pathetic excuse for one) that we have around the state.

I think going after the small specialty shops is good and all, but it is not going to help build OKC into a destination...which is what this is about. Yes the attractions I listed would help improve the area for locals as well, but the point is getting dollars from people outside of the general area to grow the economy - not just recycle the same money. As far as Gameworks, I also listed Dave and Busters as an equal target in case you missed that part.

As for the boardwalk idea, I like that...and it would definitely help with the area. I think one of the main obsticles going forward is getting the immediate area around the river cleaned up. Lets be honest, south of the river is not place most people go for a walk or to have a bite to eat. You are usually driving without stopping until you are out of there.

[writerranger]

"If I meant Gainesville, I would have said such. I'm talking about the store selection in Grapevine just in an open air format."

Sorry, Venture....I thought maybe you meant Gainesville because you said they were mostly outlet stores and it was, "down across the border." I didn't mean to question your competence, I thought it could have just been a typo. Sorry about that.

[Patrick]

Stores from either outlet center mentioned would be a draw to Bricktown and the River.

[OKCNDN]

Here's a cure for the bored, dull blues down in Bricktown......................................... ......................................a Native American casino.

[jbrown84]

However, on the flip side - we have Riverwind near Norman opening up this year that will bring a casino to the level of Winstar to the metro area. So all options will need to be weighed, but I would say...no hotel - no casino. It has to be a packaged resort - along the river.

Don't forget about the Fire Lake Grand Casino going up on I-40 between Shawnee and OKC. It's supposed to have the nicest hotel in the state.

[Midtowner]

Here's a cure for the bored, dull blues down in Bricktown......................................... ......................................a Native American casino.

Personally, I'd prefer a non-native casino such as Harrah's.

I'd also want it somewhat removed from the rest of Bricktown, maybe have a casino on the river accessible by foot or canal ride.

[OKCNDN]

Why not natives? You got something against them? All they have done is develop the casino industry, by themselves with no help and matter of fact much interference from the state, and have shown themselves to be capable of running an operation better than any other industry in this state in the last ten years. That's exactly the type of leadership you want in a business.

Do you want the guys who run Remington Park to be in charge? They are a joke.